debate topic of the week - states of emergency and individual human rights

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

We should start a thread where people can chime in with their opinions, pros and cons to decide if we want another topic. I feel that kind of dialogue would be helpful in making a decision. We could, you know, debate the merits of a new topic.

I'd like to take a moment to debate the merits of debating the topic for a new debate thread.

[CaptainCrunch]

So I wanted to get an interest in terms of topic


1) Human cloning ethical questions - A) is it ethical to clone individuals in an industrial method. Is it ethical to build a strict labor class of clones genetically engineered to perform specific tasks?


2) Exploitation of space vs exploration - Is it preferable to allow private companies to lead the forefront of the exploitation or exploration of space, or does it need to be regulated and lead by individual governments?


3) Murder Hornets - Do we allow nature to take its course and allow its spread to new environments or do we declare war on a species and exterminate it based on its ability to threaten humans?


4) The sharing of information by governments - Does absolute right to transparency exist or does the government have the right to keep secrets?

[monkey brewery]

Should we force people to get vaccinated? It's a polarizing topic, especially right now, and I do enjoy hearing discussion on it. It's obviously a very slippery slope.

[Brendone]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

3) Murder Hornets - Do we allow nature to take its course and allow its spread to new environments or do we declare war on a species and exterminate it based on its ability to threaten humans?

I feel you would get completely different discussions depending on the insect. Spiders, gross but necessary, mosquitoes, kill them all, Anti-vaxxers....

[indes]

Originally Posted by monkey brewery

Should we force people to get vaccinated? It's a polarizing topic, especially right now, and I do enjoy hearing discussion on it. It's obviously a very slippery slope.

It's definitely a fascinating topic and one that will be studied for quite some time.

I'm 100% for making this vaccine, along with the others that have been around, mandatory.

In my opinion, not getting vaccinated without a real medical reason is akin to driving drunk. We don't let people drive drunk because it's dangerous and kills people. Does it 'attack' a personal freedom? Sure it does, but no more than speed limits, construction codes or food regulations.

The real problem is the identity politics that are at play. If people just listened to the government and got vaccinated, the mandatory thing has no chance of happening. Now that people are already fighting and pushing back, they are ironically forcing the powers that be into a situation where they may have to mandate the vaccines. The mistrust for the government seems to be at all time highs and as we've seen in politics in the states, it's creating these almost cultish 'teams'.

In my opinion the following things have created a void in people's lives that is being replaced with extremism and hypervigilance;
The fall of religion in younger people
The lack of community in neighbourhoods
The amplified 'me first' attitude from increased isolationism and social safety nets
Social media creating giant echo chambers to reaffirm one's ideals.
Cancel culture that stifles the sharing of ideas

I think people are seeking out these extremist groups more and more to feel fulfilled and to feel like they're making a difference. The government is taking huge steps to appease these small groups and they're enabling them so they can have a fervent base.

Anyways it's become a political issue and not a health issue. And that's where the problem liea. People love the drama.

[timun]

Originally Posted by indes

The mistrust for the government seems to be at all time highs and as we've seen in politics in the states, it's creating these almost cultish 'teams'.

In my opinion the following things have created a void in people's lives that is being replaced with extremism and hypervigilance;
The fall of religion in younger people
The lack of community in neighbourhoods

All you're saying here is that a lack of "cultish teams" have given rise to other "cultish teams", while glossing over that religion and a "sense of community" is what drives a lot of the extremist views that kooks have glommed onto.

[indes]

Originally Posted by timun

All you're saying here is that a lack of "cultish teams" have given rise to other "cultish teams", while glossing over that religion and a "sense of community" is what drives a lot of the extremist views that kooks have glommed onto.

Pretty much exactly what I'm saying.

I'm not religious at all and think religion is stupid, like all groupthink. I guess I thought people would gravitate towards fact based decision making and critical thinking with all the data at our fingertips these days. Unfortunately social media and misinformation has taken hold and we're still the same people as we always have been. Contentious, selfish and stubborn.

I didn't mean to gloss over how historically awful religion has been, I just don't think it's relevant to this particular discussion.

I'm not sure about sense of community causing selfishness, I'll have to disagree with you there. Our communities are now just groups of individuals, who find like minds on the internet instead of having a more diverse group with only geography in common.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

So I wanted to get an interest in terms of topic


1) Human cloning ethical questions - A) is it ethical to clone individuals in an industrial method. Is it ethical to build a strict labor class of clones genetically engineered to perform specific tasks?


2) Exploitation of space vs exploration - Is it preferable to allow private companies to lead the forefront of the exploitation or exploration of space, or does it need to be regulated and lead by individual governments?


3) Murder Hornets - Do we allow nature to take its course and allow its spread to new environments or do we declare war on a species and exterminate it based on its ability to threaten humans?


4) The sharing of information by governments - Does absolute right to transparency exist or does the government have the right to keep secrets?

Human cloning seems a bit far-fetched to debate. Yes it’s possible but no one is talking about creating industrial human drones...besides, clones are fully human and won’t tolerate being slaves err drones.

A more interesting topic is cyber implants in humans. This is going to happen (may be already) for medical reasons but it’s a very slippery slope.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by indes

The amplified 'me first' attitude from increased isolationism and social safety nets

I'm not convinced that social safety nets have anything to do with increasing "me first" attitudes. The US has always had much more of a me-first attitude prevalent in its culture than Canada has, despite having inferior social safety nets compared to Canada's. How would you explain the causal link between one and the other?

Regarding mandatory vaccines... in most cases I think slippery slope arguments are based on irrational fear and cynicism, but in the case of mandatory vaccines, I do think there may be a legitimate concern. Once government gets accustomed to mandating vaccines, the question is where do they choose to draw the line? Will flu shots be mandated for everyone every year? For future pandemics, what's to stop governments from hastily mandating vaccines that have not been thoroughly tested?

[indes]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

I'm not convinced that social safety nets have anything to do with increasing "me first" attitudes. The US has always had much more of a me-first attitude prevalent in its culture than Canada has, despite having inferior social safety nets compared to Canada's. How would you explain the causal link between one and the other?

Regarding mandatory vaccines... in most cases I think slippery slope arguments are based on irrational fear and cynicism, but in the case of mandatory vaccines, I do think there may be a legitimate concern. Once government gets accustomed to mandating vaccines, the question is where do they choose to draw the line? Will flu shots be mandated for everyone every year? For future pandemics, what's to stop governments from hastily mandating vaccines that have not been thoroughly tested?

I can see the other side of the social safety nets for sure and maybe I'm not conveying exactly what I mean. It's more a general sense of entitlement I find. In our quest for equality among all, in regards to housing, feelings, pronouns, right to spread hatred around as free speech I feel as though we are giving too much value to everyone's opinion on everything if that makes sense.

Everywhere we look we see decisions being made to appease the vocal minority. I could be wrong but I feel like individualism is at an all time high, where most people believe that their beliefs, needs and feelings outweigh others'. Protests at hospitals about vaccines is a prime example.

As for the slippery slope, there is no slope, there's no hill, there's no bump in the road. This is an isolated incident where 25% of the adult population is actively sabotaging our society. The government has never tried to mandate a vaccine and I don't but that it looks at this like an opportunity to do so. People are dying and even more people are having their lives destroyed by missing surgeries or receiving inadequate health care.

I think the best solution would be no vaccine = no covid health care. Easy, don't trust the health care system enough to get a couple jabs that hundreds of millions of people have gotten? Then you shouldn't trust them to bail you out. I don't want to get into the Hippocratic oath or talk about drunk drivers and violent criminals that get medical care. This is an isolated incident that is tearing our nation apart and decimating our health care system. The government should sack up and actually do something about it.

[activeStick]

I actually feel like the reduction of social safety nets in the US and steady attack on welfare has left Americans with the realization that nobody will be there to help them if they need it and they need to rely on themselves in hard times. This in turn has lead to the increasing "my rights", "my freedoms" movement down there.