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Old 12-04-2022, 10:35 AM   #481
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Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald View Post
What are the expectations for a Phillips call up? Are people going to be happy when he is on a very short leash?
A variation of what 2018-19 Andrew Mangiapane brought to this team would be a start. Took him some time to get his confidence at this level, to catch up to the pace, but ended up being an important contributor down the stretch who made his linemates better.

Who should those linemates be? Whoever stands to benefit most from Matthew Phillips' toolset and skillset without compounding his obvious lack of size. IMO that opposite side winger should be Huberdeau, but it were Lucic/Lewis/Ritchie or Ruzicka, I don't see that as too different from how Garnet Hathaway was Eatbread's opposite side winger. And yes, Eatbread isn't "as small" as Phillips. Yet he also wasn't the smallest player on his line, Derek Ryan was.

Line construction based on compounding a bunch of identical traits rarely works. It doesn't work with Mangiapane - Kadri - Dube and it doesn't work with Huberdeau - Lindholm - Toffoli and it doesn't work with Lucic - Lewis - Ritchie.

What do I expect from Matthew Phillips?

Someone who is a good hockey player helping his team, as he adjusts to a new league.

I don't see what is complicated about that. He can definitely help the fourth line stay above water. He can help the top line (which would also trickle down and make the second line better and so forth). And he is not some 18 year old who needs to learn the pro game.
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Old 12-04-2022, 10:41 AM   #482
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Rooney played every game in October, considerably less since.

When have I said they shouldn't call someone up? When have I said they fourth line is the Island of Misfit Toys, to be devoid of all skill and only impact the game negatively?

I said they generally don't score much, ... that's the case across the league, not just in Calgary.

There's a big issue with too much ice time going to the fourth line in Calgary right now, that gets exasperated if you balance the lines out. They need to get more top heavy not less.

I'd strip the fourth line down to 8 minutes max, and with that I wouldn't burry quality prospects in that role.
I can see what youíre saying.

If the 4th line gets limited to 7-8 minutes a night, I get it. But if theyíre playing 10-12 minutes like they are currently, Iíd love to see some skill on that line.
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Old 12-04-2022, 10:56 AM   #483
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I can see what youíre saying.

If the 4th line gets limited to 7-8 minutes a night, I get it. But if theyíre playing 10-12 minutes like they are currently, Iíd love to see some skill on that line.
For sure ...

If they're going to play the fourth line too much anyway put some skill on it, why not?

I'd rather see them move the fourth line down to 8 minutes and keep it a wasteland offensively if it meant more ice time for the top six players.
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Old 12-04-2022, 10:59 AM   #484
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Training camps are terrible ways to evaluate a player, it is usually first real game action players have seen for 4 months.
Yet this is how every team in hockey evaluates players and talent. System is obviously broken because a TINY player is not gifted a position.

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Phillips had a great camp this year and was one the best players in each game he played. But not even talking about Phillips, just take a look at Pelletier. He looked quite useless in camp, now he is a completely different player. It usually takes players some time to get going, so having an opinion on players based on what you have seen in camp is pretty useless.
Except he wasn't. People oohed and ahhed over his cross ice pass in OT on a 4-on-3 PP against a bunch of other AHL palookas. After that, he quickly faded and didn't do much as more and more NHL players filtered into preseason games. He became less noticeable and faded into the woodwork

Cry all you want about training camp and the evaluation process, but that is how it works. Come to camp prepared and you stand a chance to make the team. Your job is to stand out and make the coach notice you in every shift you have. Every team follows this exact same process.

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By that measure, people would still think that Klapka is one of the best farm players just because he had 3 good camp games when nobody else was going yet, now he is struggling. It is quite documented occurrence where players dominate camp and pre-season but can't do anything when the season gets going.
Struggling in what measure? You have no idea if he is struggling. You look at points scored as the only measure of whether a player is successful. He could have been told to go down and work on his 200' game. The kid turned heads because he was BIG and he showed some offensive ability. Where he was not great was in his coverage assignments. So he was a cut and went down with instructions on what he was to work on. I suspect he is on radar because of his size and the fact he has shown he has some softness in his mitts. He has something very valuable to teams around the league. Size, skating ability, and some offensive flair. Kind of like Ruzicka.

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Or take a look at Ruzicka, he was quite bad in camp and pre-season, looks like a different player now...
Showed enough to stick and then worked hard to get into the lineup and did what he had to do. Ruzicka is actually a terrible example for you to use because he did everything he was asked to do and improve in the areas where he showed weaknesses. Still not a Selke nominee but can play at both ends of the ice. Sutter does not fear putting the BIG kid out there. You may consider the preference to size as unfair to guys like Phillips, but that is just the game. There's a reason why guys under 250 don't get to the NFL to play the offensive line, or guys that run a 6.0 forty don't make it to camp at all. To play in certain leagues you need certain characteristics. To play in the NHL you need size, or you need to be exceptional. Exceptional players don't get cut mid-training camp.
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Old 12-04-2022, 11:06 AM   #485
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I appreciate the desire to see what a guy leading the AHL in scoring has to offer. It's an intriguing story. But at the same time it's humorous people are suggesting that Phillips has not had opportunity with the Flames. He's been to how many training camps including the last one? He was just given a "prove-it" contract. That is all the incentive and opportunity most players get. Show up and be the best player in camp. Force a decision when you're actually going head-to-head against NHL players. That didn't happen. It isn't like Phillips was the last player sent down. He didn't impress the decisions makers in any shape or form. Again, this is D+7. This is not surprising actions by the team. I still contend they are watching the farm closely and have a couple players on a short list for call up. Phillips just doesn't appear to be on that watch list, for obvious reasons. If the team continues to fall further behind the playoff pace things may change, but I don't see the Flames making a gamble on anyone from the farm in a top six role.
I hate this argument because it ignores the AHL season.

He’s proven it for three seasons at the AHL level with no NHL games or real call ups. That’s not a real shot.

He was perfectly fine this training camp and the best player in the Seattle game, got sent down anyways. He deserved to stay in camp more than Eakins, Ruzicka, and Milano ImO as they were all worse than he was in camp but they got to the end of camp to find their game.

Let just say what it is. He’s 5’7” and the coach is too stubborn and old school to take a shot on a 5’7” forward that isn’t already a proven star. So the team finds any excuse they can to justify that the coach just won’t play him.

Gotta keep running Lucic, Rooney, and Ritchie out there.

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Old 12-04-2022, 11:13 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald View Post
Yet this is how every team in hockey evaluates players and talent. System is obviously broken because a TINY player is not gifted a position.



Except he wasn't. People oohed and ahhed over his cross ice pass in OT on a 4-on-3 PP against a bunch of other AHL palookas. After that, he quickly faded and didn't do much as more and more NHL players filtered into preseason games. He became less noticeable and faded into the woodwork

Cry all you want about training camp and the evaluation process, but that is how it works. Come to camp prepared and you stand a chance to make the team. Your job is to stand out and make the coach notice you in every shift you have. Every team follows this exact same process.



Struggling in what measure? You have no idea if he is struggling. You look at points scored as the only measure of whether a player is successful. He could have been told to go down and work on his 200' game. The kid turned heads because he was BIG and he showed some offensive ability. Where he was not great was in his coverage assignments. So he was a cut and went down with instructions on what he was to work on. I suspect he is on radar because of his size and the fact he has shown he has some softness in his mitts. He has something very valuable to teams around the league. Size, skating ability, and some offensive flair. Kind of like Ruzicka.



Showed enough to stick and then worked hard to get into the lineup and did what he had to do. Ruzicka is actually a terrible example for you to use because he did everything he was asked to do and improve in the areas where he showed weaknesses. Still not a Selke nominee but can play at both ends of the ice. Sutter does not fear putting the BIG kid out there. You may consider the preference to size as unfair to guys like Phillips, but that is just the game. There's a reason why guys under 250 don't get to the NFL to play the offensive line, or guys that run a 6.0 forty don't make it to camp at all. To play in certain leagues you need certain characteristics. To play in the NHL you need size, or you need to be exceptional. Exceptional players don't get cut mid-training camp.
Ya it is fine to evaluate players based on camp to determine if they should be sent down or not, but as soon as the season starts, camp should not have any weight based on that prospect's chances of being recalled. If Phillips was on every other team in the NHL, majority of them would have given him more than 1 NHL game in 4 years.

Sutter's obsessions with size is just plain out wrong in today's NHL. Just because he is a good coach does not mean he doesn't not have flaws
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Old 12-04-2022, 11:24 AM   #487
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Historically speaking teams that win usually win with home grown talent not a roster built through free agency and trades.

Last year kind of proves that point but it was out of Treliving hands that they decided to walk and we had to pivot. That also doesn't mean you load up the team with the Rooneys and and Lewis type guys we could have graduated some players.

Right now we have 5 drafted players in the lineup. Minus the expansion teams that has to be lowest.

Sutter the GM did this as well focused on free agency and trades ignored the draft and left is in a mess.

To take the next step we need to graduate some players and in a hurry.
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Old 12-04-2022, 11:32 AM   #488
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Historically speaking teams that win usually win with home grown talent not a roster built through free agency and trades.

Last year kind of proves that point but it was out of Treliving hands that they decided to walk and we had to pivot. That also doesn't mean you load up the team with the Rooneys and and Lewis type guys we could have graduated some players.

Right now we have 5 drafted players in the lineup. Minus the expansion teams that has to be lowest.

Sutter the GM did this as well focused on free agency and trades ignored the draft and left is in a mess.

To take the next step we need to graduate some players and in a hurry.
There is nothing about Connor Zary nor Jacob Pelletier that requires a recall in a hurry. Nothing.

The AHL team is full of drafted first and second year pros learning their craft.

The guys you want graduated are playing for other teams because the Flames bet on their core and moved picks out from 2017 to 2019

2017 No 2nd No 3rd
2018 No 1st No 2nd No 3rd
2019 No 2nd

1st and 2nd round picks in years previous were graduated ... Tkachuk, Andersson, Kylington, Valimaki

Teams that don't draft in the top 5-10 don't have straight to the NHL prospects. Teams that don't draft in the 1st or 2nd round wait even longer.

But there is no need to hurry with guys that are playing their second year of pro hockey coming out of a covid lack of games period. Zary was even hurt to start year one.
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Old 12-04-2022, 11:39 AM   #489
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There is nothing about Connor Zary nor Jacob Pelletier that requires a recall in a hurry. Nothing.

The AHL team is full of drafted first and second year pros learning their craft.

The guys you want graduated are playing for other teams because the Flames bet on their core and moved picks out from 2017 to 2019

2017 No 2nd No 3rd
2018 No 1st No 2nd No 3rd
2019 No 2nd

1st and 2nd round picks in years previous were graduated ... Tkachuk, Andersson, Kylington, Valimaki

Teams that don't draft in the top 5-10 don't have straight to the NHL prospects. Teams that don't draft in the 1st or 2nd round wait even longer.

But there is no need to hurry with guys that are playing their second year of pro hockey coming out of a covid lack of games period. Zary was even hurt to start year one.
Matthew Phillips is waiting for a recall.

Also do you disagree that cup winning teams win with home grown talent?
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Old 12-04-2022, 11:41 AM   #490
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Historically speaking teams that win usually win with home grown talent not a roster built through free agency and trades.

Last year kind of proves that point but it was out of Treliving hands that they decided to walk and we had to pivot. That also doesn't mean you load up the team with the Rooneys and and Lewis type guys we could have graduated some players.

Right now we have 5 drafted players in the lineup. Minus the expansion teams that has to be lowest.

Sutter the GM did this as well focused on free agency and trades ignored the draft and left is in a mess.

To take the next step we need to graduate some players and in a hurry.
I think you should look at the last 4 cup winners. The majority of their players have either been signed or traded for but they do have some great draft picks that were all in the top 4 overall (except Kucherov)
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Old 12-04-2022, 11:43 AM   #491
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If Phillips was on every other team in the NHL, majority of them would have given him more than 1 NHL game in 4 years.
Completely untrue. Phillips has been available to every team - for free - and has not been picked up. If every other team in the league wanted Phillips the Flames would work a trade for him in a heartbeat and take whatever asset they could get. It is obvious this isn't the case. If this huge demand were out there, he would have been moved already because it appears the Flames know he's not in the plans for anything but the AHL squad.
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Old 12-04-2022, 11:44 AM   #492
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Matthew Phillips is waiting for a recall.

Also do you disagree that cup winning teams win with home grown talent?
We've discussed the Phillips thing to death haven't we? Made it pretty clear I'm game to see him come up, but don't see a spot right now to do it.

The Flames have drafted and promoted ...

Mangiapane
Andersson
Kylington
Tkachuk
Dube
Valimaki
Ruzicka

All from 2015-2017 then a lack of picks means less players to promote in subsequent years.

Ten total draft picks in 2018-2019 that's it.

So no it's not as simple as saying cup contenders promote. You have to make the picks to have players to promote, and then you need the opportunity, and then the player has to steal a spot.

That's all teams.
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Old 12-04-2022, 11:45 AM   #493
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I think you should look at the last 4 cup winners. The majority of their players have either been signed or traded for but they do have some great draft picks that were all in the top 4 overall (except Kucherov)
They added pieces but the core group was drafted and developed.

Mackinnon, Rantanen, Makar, Kucherov, Herman, Point.

A few of the those players got drafted in later rounds so not exactly straight to the NHL guys.
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Old 12-04-2022, 11:46 AM   #494
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I hate this argument because it ignores the AHL season.

Heís proven it for three seasons at the AHL level with no NHL games or real call ups. Thatís not a real shot.

He was perfectly fine this training camp and the best player in the Seattle game, got sent down anyways. He deserved to stay in camp more than Eakins, Ruzicka, and Milano ImO as they were all worse than he was in camp but they got to the end of camp to find their game.

Let just say what it is. Heís 5í7Ē and the coach is too stubborn and old school to take a shot on a 5í7Ē forward that isnít already a proven star. So the team finds any excuse they can to justify that the coach just wonít play him.

Gotta keep running Lucic, Rooney, and Ritchie out there.
Thatís just not true. If he was nhl ready for three years heíd be gone on waivers.

Marchessault played 4 nhl games, with 3 years between games 2 and 3 before he was 25/26 years old. Yanni Gourde played 2. Itís the only path to the NHL for small players who are nothing special til their mid 20s. Across the league.

this is not unique to Sutter or the Flames or Phillips.

You can argue the whole league is misguided this way if you want, but thereís a reason heís not had a shot or been picked up by another team across 6-7 pro years, different coaches, and training camps. Itís not Sutter. Itís because he has not been good enough.

Maybe he kicks down the door this year and explodes with an opportunity somewhere else next year. Odds are he will not.
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Old 12-04-2022, 11:49 AM   #495
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Historically speaking teams that win usually win with home grown talent not a roster built through free agency and trades.

Last year kind of proves that point but it was out of Treliving hands that they decided to walk and we had to pivot. That also doesn't mean you load up the team with the Rooneys and and Lewis type guys we could have graduated some players.

Right now we have 5 drafted players in the lineup. Minus the expansion teams that has to be lowest.

Sutter the GM did this as well focused on free agency and trades ignored the draft and left is in a mess.

To take the next step we need to graduate some players and in a hurry.
And if not for geography that would be 10+

Flames in this market obviously can't operate like most other teams
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Old 12-04-2022, 11:50 AM   #496
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The thing with Marchessault and Phillips is they were both very productive in the AHL starting at age 21 — Marchessault scored at a 0.84 P/GP pace in the A at age 21; Phillips produced at 0.87 P/GP at age 21. These aren't guys who came out of nowhere in the AHL when they turned 24. Phillips has been a quality AHLer for years.

Phillips has been passed over on waivers at times when everybody in the league passes through waivers, with very few exceptions.
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Old 12-04-2022, 11:53 AM   #497
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And if not for geography that would be 10+

Flames in this market obviously can't operate like most other teams
Not blaming Treliving I even said that. It's not his fault one guy lied and another prioritized golf carts and sandals over winning.

Fact remains we have some guys who deserve a look.
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Old 12-04-2022, 11:55 AM   #498
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Just looked at his hockeydb. Is he really only 140 pounds?
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Old 12-04-2022, 11:57 AM   #499
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Just looked at his hockeydb. Is he really only 140 pounds?
I think it was mentioned hockey dB doesn't update measurements after the draft.

Apparently he's 160
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Old 12-04-2022, 11:57 AM   #500
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Just looked at his hockeydb. Is he really only 140 pounds?
Not this convo again!

He probably is actually around 140-150 pounds. But everyone in the league juices their figures for the official listings — and, most recently, Phillips was officially listed at 5'8", 160 by the AHL.

EliteProspects has him at 165. 140 is his combine measurement from 2016.
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