Is it time to call up Mathew Phillips?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Well I'm glad you now recognize they were great deadline acquisitions. How they played two years later and how the club was constructed post lockout isn't very relevant IMO.

I stand by my opinion this club needs to improve the top 9 for this year's playoffs. The three I referenced were top 9 (on that team) which is why I pointed out their playoff performance. It's a hometown example of how you don't need to sell the farm for one player when your team is more than one player away from being a contender. Giving Sutter a few more NHL calibre options up front would be huge. They don't need to be elite scorers or playmakers, since this team wins by shutting the other team down.

As for the bolded, why differentiate who is acquiring said players? Is it an attempt to deflect accountability or something? Not every discussion needs to be a referendum on Treliving. That's an unnecessary sidetrack to talking about what the club should be doing over the next few weeks.

Again, I never said they were bad acquisitions. Not just “now”. I loved Marcus Nilson’s play. What I’m saying is that the players that have been acquired now are the same types of players. It’s just that they haven’t caught fire in the POs (and they are older so maybe they won’t). Now if you are advocating more guys like that, fine. I agree that there are a lot more middle six guys to get than skilled players. But a lot of this board will say the team is “throwing away assets again”.

[djsFlames]

How much deadweight can a team have before it has an effect one the W-L columns.

With a long season i think you need players near the bottom that are at least capable of going on a heater and picking up some of the slack for the top guys from time to time.

Can only do it by committee if you have a committee that's capable of making contributions.

Hopefully they make a meaningful deadline acquisition because I don't see them giving a farm player a shot at a meaningful time of the year. Never been the Flames' way, which is too bad because I think they could benefit greatly from putting trust in some of the youngsters they've hand picked.

We can't stand to play through necessary growing pains of less experienced players, unless they absolutely pop off like Kylington to start. We just staple guys to the press box and eventually (way too long afterward) send them back down.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

How about just an accurate assessment of the situation?

I'm not sure it's accurate, but call it whatever you want. The Flames history of not giving players in the AHL a shot is a long and desolate road of self inflicted misery. The excuse used to be that the talent wasn't there, but now you can't argue that there are not at least 4-5 players as good or better than what is currently at the bottom of the club's NHL roster. Whether you deem them NHL talent or not is irrelevant when the NHL club already has a handful of players that are not worthy of a spot anyway.

Season players in the minors all you want, but if you don't actually have a plan in place to inject them into the lineup at some point, and instead opt for Richardson, Lewis, Ritchie, Pitlick type players via FA, you're never going to have the success you strive for and will ultimately disengage the young players who don't see a path to the next step.

This is not a knock on Sutter, as this is a GM/player ops issue in my eyes - it has been common practice Treliving's entire tenure. Ruzicka was finally given a shot, and to be honest, he was at least as good as all the fodder listed above, with the chance to be better with more experience and much better offensive skill than any of them.

Pelletier, Philips and Mackey would highly likely not fare any worse than players they are potentially replacing either for however long of an audition it takes, but half a dozen games or so certainly isn't going to submarine the season or hurt their long term development....and if the team isn't going to promote them from within anyway, who cares about their long term development.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Pelletier, Philips and Mackey would highly likely not fare any worse than players they are potentially replacing either for however long of an audition it takes, but half a dozen games or so certainly isn't going to submarine the season or hurt their long term development....and if the team isn't going to promote them from within anyway, who cares about their long term development.

I disagree about Mackey. I'd like to see him get more of an opportunity but I don't agree that they are "highly likely not to fare anyworse". The bottom pairing is performing fine for me, I see no reason to change that.

I agree more with the forwards. The 4th line is just not effective so I struggle to understand why not try something different there. That bar is very low. Getting Pitlick back, and Lewis is dependable and clearly someone Sutter trusts. But Richardson and Ritchie shouldn't be everyday players.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Don’t get it twisted, I don’t think anybody here thinks Phillips is the saviour that is going to save the Flames season…not even Scorp.

There is probably a 90% chance that Phillips is a guy who is a good offensive producer in the AHL, but won’t ever be an NHLer.

But there is a time that comes when a prospect has learned all he can learn in the AHL, and you need to give him a run of NHL games to learn the game at the next level.

There is no doubt in my mind that the line between “NHLer” and “Career AHLer” is actually very thin, and sometimes if you don’t give a player a chance to learn at the next level you actually stunt their development at some point.

Over the last 4 seasons Phillips has played in 164 AHL games. Gawdin has played in 171. More time at that level isn’t going to teach them what they need to be NHLers.

Gawdin and Phillips are 1st and 3rd in AHL scoring for players U-25 over the last three seasons, they have been 1st line players on that team the entire time. They have earned more of a look.

I’m not sure the Flames aren’t wrong about how they’ve handled our prospects, and Tampa Bay is a good example to me.

Look at Ross Colton, he was never a guy that lit up the AHL, 76 points in 131 AHL games is production worse than both Gawdin and Phillips.

But somehow the Tampa Bay Lightning have found a way to play him 70 games the last two seasons, and this year he’s filled in admirably for them and has 19 points in 40 games, mostly being used in a 4th line role.

19 points is more than Brad Richardson, Tyler Pitlick, Trevor Lewis, and Brett Richie have combined for all season (13 points)

I’m not sure what organization the Flames want to emulate but somehow the best organization in the league seems to be able to work guys like Colton (0.58 AHL PPG), Joseph (0.75 AHL PPG), Raddysh (0.69 AHL PPG), Katchouk (0.54 AHL PPG) into their lineup year after year.

Going back further Yanni Gourde was a small guy that is about Phillips size, his career AHL numbers (0.66 PPG) weren’t any better than Phillips, but Tampa gave him a shot and he was great for them. Wonder if the San Jose organization regrets letting him leave.

Or going back again how about Tampa being the first organization to give Jonathan Marchessault a shot in the NHL after he had great AHL career numbers (0.86 PPG). Wonder if Columbus regrets that they let him leave their organization after only playing him in 2 whole NHL games.

Tampa Bay is the class of the NHL over the last 5 years, and they consistently give their own young AHLers a shot instead of signing below replacement level forwards.

So forgive me if I get frustrated that the Flames prefer to sign the Nordstrom, Ritchie, Richardson, and Lewis’s of the world, instead of imitating a franchise like Tampa Bay and giving a look to guys like Gawdin (0.75 AHL PPG), Phillips (0.76 AHL PPG), Ruzicka (0.67 AHL PPG), Mackey (0.59 PPG as a dman), or even Pospisil (0.55 AHL PPG). Pelletier too of course but he’s only played 30 AHL games, so I get keeping him down a little longer (although it would be a lot like the Kings calling up Toffoli in 2014)

Funniest part is even when Sutter won his cups it was with young teams. The roster for Darryls first cup win in LA had 2 regular players (>10 playoff games) over 30 (Mitchell and Scuderi), and 7 players under 25 (Doughty, Voynov, Martinez, Lewis, Nolan, King, Kopitar)

And even his second cup team added a bunch of fresh new youngsters (Toffoli, Pearson, Clifford) who were all under the age of 22.

Darryl’s best successes have been with young teams (04 Flames were a young team too), not by filling up the bottom of the roster with aging, low upside, provide nothing on the ice veterans. Good thing they are all so good in the room though.

Don't forget Carter Verhaeghe, who the Panthers poached after he cracked a deep Tampa Bay lineup.

We can benefit from trying some of these guys over the replacement level talent that's "good at defense". How much worse could someone like Phillips be at defense than Richardson? Maybe he's our next Carter Verhaeghe or Jonathan Marchesseault?

You have to try it to find out.

[robertsfanatic]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Don't forget Carter Verhaeghe, who the Panthers poached after he cracked a deep Tampa Bay lineup.

not to go off topic but I love Verhaeghe, wicked shot.

and yes Phillips deserves a shot and would more than likely be an upgrade for the bottom 3.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Don't forget Carter Verhaeghe, who the Panthers poached after he cracked a deep Tampa Bay lineup.

We can benefit from trying some of these guys over the replacement level talent that's "good at defense". How much worse could someone like Phillips be at defense than Richardson? Maybe he's our next Carter Verhaeghe or Jonathan Marchesseault?

You have to try it to find out.

Yup.

And people will just keep going "How does Tampa keep doing it?!"

They do it by actually giving young players a chance to learn and grow in the NHL.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

It was pure GM brilliance and it cost them a 2nd round pick and spare parts really. Everything Sutter touched turned to gold in the first year+ of his tenure as GM and it was glorious being a Flames fan.

And then it went all to hell.

No doubt...I think Gio's point is that the 04 team had needs everywhere (especially after injuries), so simply adding regular NHL players was an inevitable upgrade.

Iginla
Conroy (adequate 1C, but should be 2C on a good team)

Veteran Middle sixers:
McAmmond (2LW)
Reinprecht (2/3C)
Donovan (2/3 RW)
Gelinas (2/3LW)
Clark (3RW)
Yelle (3C)

Promising young players who ultimately never proved themselves as top sixers:
Saprykin
Kobasew
Lombardi


Niemenen career high 27 pts
Simon 2000s high 31 pts
Nilson was a steady ~13G 32P guy...he deliverd 0.42 ppg in the playoffs; identical to his career average


Three middle sixers who are probably best suited to 3rd line. They would all help upgrade current Flames bottom 6...but most agree the current Flames need a forward who can outperform Backlund/Coleman/Monahan, thereby pushing everyone else down a slot and improving the bottom 6 as a result...

[Macho0978]

Sure it helps if Phillips chips in more offensively but this is assuming he doesn’t get lit up on the defensive end. Pitlick Lewis and Richardson aren’t giving up more goals or chances per 60 mins than some of our best players. Ritchie is the only player that stands out as someone who is creating nothing and giving up more than most. But he was hurt and is physical so maybe he will improve as he plays.

IMO Ruzicka deserves more of a real crack in the lineup than phillips and I’m not sure playing both would be smart especially on a 4th line not on the pp for 8 to 10 mins a game.

Scoring issues aren’t the 4th lines fault. It’s the 2nd and 3rd that need to step up but of late monahan is looking a bit quicker with a bit more of his wrister too. Seems to be getting it off quicker too. He’s the key to this team still not phillips. He needs to step up or it’s time to move on

Backlund too. Need more or this team will not do any damage this season

[Jiri Hrdina]

Ruzicka didn't impress me. Doesn't think the game at NHL pace.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Ruzicka didn't impress me. Doesn't think the game at NHL pace.

Maybe your right but he played just as well in the AHL as Phillips.

I personally love the new lines. Top 3 lines that is. I’ve been wanting backlund and Coleman with mangiapane for awhile. Also think Dube and Lucic play well together and love Monahan with them. It’s been 2 games since sutter made these lines and the beat Florida 5 to 1 and scored 3 goals on 47 shots against the Oilers. I don’t know seems ok to me let’s not rip it apart because some can’t handle a loss to the oilers.

Ritchie should sit for Ruzicka tonight. Otherwise leaves as is

[PuckSlap]

I can’t think of a farm player that I would bring up right now.

Nobody is going to make that massive difference that we need.

The flames lack a strong power forward, with a mean wrist shot. All the successful teams have those players that can just rip one past the goalie. Johnny has a decent trick shot, but it’s not hard enough, same with Mathew. Lindholm comes close, but he’s kinda slowed down, as of late.

I’ve been reading these forums on Calgarypuck for a very long time, and one thing that happens almost every single year, is. Everyone gets worried and starts talking about how we need to bring up players from the, abotford heat, Adirondack Flames and of course Stockton. And usually it’s at the tail end of the season, or game three of a playoff series

We don’t have anything sitting in the minors that are going to make a difference. Imo, of course.


Also, the flames a notorious for filling the bottom six with plugs. Sometimes even the top six… this year included.

[442scotty]

Ruzicka has the talent but I think he needs to play with SKILL players who can bring him up to speed. Playing him with fourth line plugs does nothing for him and while he’s no Sam Bennett, Bennett is a perfect example of what happened when you put skill with plugs.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Ruzicka didn't impress me. Doesn't think the game at NHL pace.

I actually don't disagree but problem is players need the time to adjust to NHL game pace.

Sure some of the elite first round picks can step right in, but guys that are more tweeners need the time to adjust to the pace of play.

IIRC Mangiapane didn't have a point in his first 18 NHL games.

Even Gaudreau didn't look good the first 5 games to start the 14-15 season (1 shot, no points) then he broke out against the Jets. But I remember they said he was very close to being sent down before that Jets game.

Ruzicka played 3 games in a row last year to end the season, got a stretch of 4 games this season, and then a single game.

The longest stretch of Gawdin's call up have been 5 games, but he played under 6 minutes in 4 of those games.

I'm not sure it's fair to throw a guy in for a game or two and then say he isn't ready if he doesn't immediately impress.

And this is where the Flames handling of the stretch run last year was a bit messy. Flames were officially eliminated May 10th, they played 4 games that week against the Canucks, and in those games they played:

Phillips: 1 Game
Gawdin: 1 Game
Ruzicka: 3 Games
(Even Kylington only got 1 game as we kept playing Tanev with broken ribs for some reason)

But Nordstrom, Ritchie, Simon, Leivo were all in the line up for most of those games. Why? How did that make any sense to not play the Flames prospects in those 4 games to at least get a taste of the NHL.

Another part is the Flames have been relatively healthy the past 2-3 seasons, so haven't had a lot of injuries where they've been forced to give a young guy a look.

[Jiri Hrdina]

The evaluation has to go beyond points, which is where you assess if you give a guy more time or not. Nothing I saw from Gawdin or Ruzicka told me that they are going to be anything more than a tweener. Good at the AHL, not good enough for the NHl.
if they are going to call someone up, I would give someone else a crack (Phillips or Pelletier)

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Season players in the minors all you want, but if you don't actually have a plan in place to inject them into the lineup at some point, and instead opt for Richardson, Lewis, Ritchie, Pitlick type players via FA, you're never going to have the success you strive for and will ultimately disengage the young players who don't see a path to the next step.

This is not a knock on Sutter, as this is a GM/player ops issue in my eyes - it has been common practice Treliving's entire tenure. Ruzicka was finally given a shot, and to be honest, he was at least as good as all the fodder listed above, with the chance to be better with more experience and much better offensive skill than any of them.

There are currently five players on the active roster that play meaningful minutes and were developed in the Calgary farm system. Three others that were drafted and went straight to the NHL.

The team acquired a backup goaltender with next to no NHL experience.

You honestly think Sutter is just being force fed NHL veterans that played and won for Sutter against Sutter's wishes? Seriously?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The evaluation has to go beyond points, which is where you assess if you give a guy more time or not. Nothing I saw from Gawdin or Ruzicka told me that they are going to be anything more than a tweener. Good at the AHL, not good enough for the NHl.
if they are going to call someone up, I would give someone else a crack (Phillips or Pelletier)

I think if Ruzicka could demonstrate he could play at the pace that Sutter insists on he'd get a longer look, production or not. To date he hasn't. Guessing they are working with him in practice on that.

Gawdin in the early games this year just seemed behind the NHL speed when it came to making decisions.

With that said I'm all for giving Philipps a look, just not sure now is the time with the team finally having the top nine forwards on the top three lines and Phillips not really suitable for the fourth line.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think if Ruzicka could demonstrate he could play at the pace that Sutter insists on he'd get a longer look, production or not. To date he hasn't. Guessing they are working with him in practice on that.

Gawdin in the early games this year just seemed behind the NHL speed when it came to making decisions.

With that said I'm all for giving Philipps a look, just not sure now is the time with the team finally having the top nine forwards on the top three lines and Phillips not really suitable for the fourth line.

100% agree. The top 3 lines right now all have very good numbers as is. The mix of the 2nd and 3rd line right now could be the best combos we had this year

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bingo

There are currently five players on the active roster that play meaningful minutes and were developed in the Calgary farm system. Three others that were drafted and went straight to the NHL.

The team acquired a backup goaltender with next to no NHL experience.

You honestly think Sutter is just being force fed NHL veterans that played and won for Sutter against Sutter's wishes? Seriously?

There’s almost zero doubt that Sutter requested Lewis and probably Richardson too. Mind you, he had them when they were 29 (Lewis) and 27 (Richardson). Maybe he overestimated their capacity at 35/36.

[GioforPM]

I’m doubtful Phillips gets a call. But I’m starting to think overcooking isn’t that much in vogue. So maybe they should try it to see what they’ve got. He can’t learn any more in the AHL.

If you look at the Flames roster there are precious few players that spent more than a couple full seasons in the AHL, especially forwards.