American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

It's because of an a priori assumption about Trump and his cronies having malicious intents towards foreigners. Based on his rhetoric, it's reasonable to assume that he treated them that way because he despised them and wanted to punish them for attempting to cross the border.

Biden has not expressed any hatred towards their group at all, and in fact, his rhetoric has been pretty positive and welcoming. It would be reasonable to assume in their case that it's not borne of malicious intent, but rather negligence and/or apathy.

Neither is good, but one is slightly less egregious than the other.

I also have no good solutions for the situation, but at some point, detention cannot continue, otherwise you have unlawful imprisonment.

But that's a terrible reason to deflect criticism with "well what do you propose?" It completely lets this administration off the hook after we were repeatedly told by the "blue no matter who" crowd that they would hold Biden accountable for these things.

As far as I'm aware, he's still proceeding with the border wall as well (including annexing land owned by American citizens), and the Maddows and Rupars of the world won't say a damn thing about it.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

I'm not defending the other poster, merely proposing reasons for why people view Biden differently.

Biden immediately cut funding to the wall and the executive order gave him time to reappropriate funding for better purposes. That may include finishing construction of certain sections when contracts have already been signed, but that's because they have an obligation to contractors to honor the contract. All other funding has been moved elsewhere.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-...-construction/

Biden isn't building new wall at all, but he is using funds that were already committed to update sections already built or to improve the structures existing, according to Snopes. In some cases it seems that canceling the contract would cost more than finishing it, so they are viewing it as a sunk cost at this point.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/biden-border-wall/

I mean, if that's the hill of criticism you want to die on, go for it, but most reasonable people who don't have an axe to grind are understanding that some decisions need to be practical.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by rubecube

But that's a terrible reason to deflect criticism with "well what do you propose?" It completely lets this administration off the hook after we were repeatedly told by the "blue no matter who" crowd that they would hold Biden accountable for these things.

As far as I'm aware, he's still proceeding with the border wall as well (including annexing land owned by American citizens), and the Maddows and Rupars of the world won't say a damn thing about it.

Since when is Maddow considered a high standard of journalist integrity?

Anyway, it appears to me, he is using money allocated by Congress already for the wall. It appears to be a little messy, and perhaps Biden isn't squeaky clean either:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pled...ry?id=76928099

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Mull

What didn't get passed that he wanted? The only thing I really remember was the full repeal of Obama care... and that was due to a certain senator who is no longer with us.

Tax cuts not as much as GOP would like
Wall funding not as much
Social issues, prisons, abortion law, boycotts, curtailing big tech , civil liberties.
There's lots of stuff a really right winged GOP Government would want to pass.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Mull

Since when is Maddow considered a high standard of journalist integrity?

Anyway, it appears to me, he is using money allocated by Congress already for the wall. It appears to be a little messy, and perhaps Biden isn't squeaky clean either:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pled...ry?id=76928099

There have been posters in this thread (or previous versions) who've referenced her as a reliable talking head. It's clearly ridiculous, but it's not an uncommon belief among partisan Democrats.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I'm not defending the other poster, merely proposing reasons for why people view Biden differently.

Biden immediately cut funding to the wall and the executive order gave him time to reappropriate funding for better purposes. That may include finishing construction of certain sections when contracts have already been signed, but that's because they have an obligation to contractors to honor the contract. All other funding has been moved elsewhere.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-...-construction/

Biden isn't building new wall at all, but he is using funds that were already committed to update sections already built or to improve the structures existing, according to Snopes. In some cases it seems that canceling the contract would cost more than finishing it, so they are viewing it as a sunk cost at this point.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/biden-border-wall/

I mean, if that's the hill of criticism you want to die on, go for it, but most reasonable people who don't have an axe to grind are understanding that some decisions need to be practical.

Sure.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/0...ll-land-482189

Nearly three months into office, Joe Biden’s administration is seizing land near the southern border, fueling fears that the government will continue building one the most enduring symbols of Donald Trump’s presidency: a border wall.

This week, the U.S. government seized six acres from a family in Hidalgo County, Texas, the result of a Trump-era court case designed to help construct the border wall.

The Biden administration never withdrew from or asked to dismiss the case, according to documents and interviews. Administration officials said they didn’t do so because they are still in the midst of a review of federal resources used to build the wall. But that review, which was put into place through a proclamation Biden signed on his first day in office, was supposed to be finished by March 20. And officials have offered no timetable for its completion.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by rubecube

There have been posters in this thread (or previous versions) who've referenced her as a reliable talking head. It's clearly ridiculous, but it's not an uncommon belief among partisan Democrats.

Every time I think of her I think of Trump playing her like a fiddle with his "leaked" tax returns and the build-up she had on that show.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Why is it on me, with nearly zero knowledge of immigration and refugee policy, to come up for a solution to someone's problem they created when they decided they were going to warehouse children in pretty questionable living conditions?

I watched people who are supposed to be good at this stuff promise that if people voted for them, they'd fix it "Day 1".

Why is it my problem they lied?

It's your problem if you actually think "day 1" literally means day 1. I'm also getting a sense that you're not fully aware of what's going on.

Here's three things I think you should consider before calling them liars:

1) Due to failures in immigration policy dating back to at least Clinton era, tens of thousands of children have been crossing the border unaccompanied each year. March 2021 saw a new record of 18,500 unaccompanied children cross the border. That's 600+ new kids every single day. This is the vast majority of children in custody, they're not being separated from their parents like under Trump.

(This is because immigrant parents believe that unaccompanied children will be housed and fed by US government and more importantly will not be returned across the border, and thus they see it as the best chance the children will have at a better life.)

Especially given the covid-situation, it's kind of a logistical nightmare that needs a lot of fairly expensive infrastructure to properly fix. That infrastructure does not spring up in a day no matter how much good will is involved. This stuff also needs funds to solve, which has to be found in some budget somewhere, and that's never really a 1 day issue.

Of course this IS in large part a Biden failure too, as the administration once again set up a policy to expel families at the border. (The exact policy which has long been known to create a stream of unaccompanied children.)

2) There were thousands of children in the system when the Biden administration came to power, and it takes time to fix something like that. The number of children in custody has however dropped 45% by April 12th, which is not bad considering the record number of children coming in. Clearly the specific part of the system you're talking about (children being held in detention) is at the very least improving.

3) Various state and local officials actively oppose Biden's policies, which makes it a lot harder to get things done.

There's also an unknown but definitively very significant portion of people in ICE that are either literally nazi's or just generally white supremacists. There is supposedly some kind of a probe going on to try and root out the worst, but who knows how effective that will be.

I would however add a more general point here:

The failures of US immigration policy date back decades. Children in detention centers are ultimately a symptom of deep systematic problems which have for a long time been considered fairly unsolvable, and it's not just an American issue, and it's even further from just a Biden issue.

For comparison, we Europeans also mostly keep our unwanted immigrants in camps, they're just outside European borders, for example in Turkey, so we can sort of pretend it's not us doing it. (Even though Turkey is holding immigrants in those camps in because the EU is paying them to do so.) We also just murder immigrants to stop them from coming here, either by getting border patrols of our neighboring countries to do it, or we force them unto leaky boats that are then dragged to the middle of Mediterranean and drive away. Out of sight and out of mind etc.

My point is, there's a lot of people in the western world who see death and suffering as the best solution to keeping unwanted people out. Those people also make up a significant portion of the US voters, and a significant portion of US politicians, officials and law enforcement.

That's ultimately the reason why the situation is like it is. It's not Biden, and when Trump was solving the situation his way, it had very little effect on his popularity one way or the other, showing that helping immigrant children at the border is not REALLY an issue people care about.

What the US as a country (and Europe as a continent) wants is to make this go away just enough so that they don't have to think about it, and when that's really the only thing there's significant support for, it might be impossible to do much more.

[afc wimbledon]

Until the US lets everyone in or no one in this will be a problem, and while I acknowledge the US is absolutely responsible for the mess that is Central America I also cant see it is a reasonable position to expect the US to open its borders to anyone that rocks up with a rental wife and kids (or real ones for that matter) just because of the regions history

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by rubecube

But that's a terrible reason to deflect criticism with "well what do you propose?" It completely lets this administration off the hook after we were repeatedly told by the "blue no matter who" crowd that they would hold Biden accountable for these things.

Feeling downright stupid about being one of those people, honestly.

I thought I was done with debating Trump supporters. And yet, this all feels alarmingly familiar.

Feel a little bad for Trump supporters though, honestly. Defending and excusing the government's human rights abuses was supposed to be their thing! Who knew Biden supporters would take a shine to it so quickly?

Big fan of the "it's your fault for taking a politician at their word, not the politician's fault for saying it" sentiment though. I'm glad that Trump classic is sticking around.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I'm confused about what this argument is about... let me try to clear this up.

1. Are there still kids being kept in cages?
2. If the answer to "1" is yes, isn't the "proposed solution" just... let them out? And stop putting kids in cages?

[GirlySports]

Let them out where?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I'm confused about what this argument is about... let me try to clear this up.

1. Are there still kids being kept in cages?
2. If the answer to "1" is yes, isn't the "proposed solution" just... let them out? And stop putting kids in cages?

No, we have to wait. Joe Biden is a good man, he has said good things.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I'm confused about what this argument is about... let me try to clear this up.

1. Are there still kids being kept in cages?
2. If the answer to "1" is yes, isn't the "proposed solution" just... let them out? And stop putting kids in cages?

1. no, the kids are being moved out of the facilities that were described as cages as soon as they can find alternate facilities

2. no you cant just 'let them out' as they have to be fed and protected from predators, the snake heads that brought them and consider them their property, you cant just pat a 12 year old girl on the head and let them walk off on their own, you have to hold them while you find appropriate foster homes or the like.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

1. no, the kids are being moved out of the facilities that were described as cages as soon as they can find alternate facilities

2. no you cant just 'let them out' as they have to be fed and protected from predators, the snake heads that brought them and consider them their property, you cant just pat a 12 year old girl on the head and let them walk off on their own, you have to hold them while you find appropriate foster homes or the like.

And in some cases this is taking weeks. The limit to how long they can hold these children is supposed to be 72 hours.

I don't know if "No, they aren't being held in cages, they are being held in cages until they aren't being held in cages weeks later" really makes a lot of sense. The answer is yes.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

2. no you cant just 'let them out' as they have to be fed and protected from predators

Ah, I see, so the cages were for their own protection. How did I not see this? Very wise.

[afc wimbledon]

you know Canada holds kids in cages as well? if you describe a law enforcement facility that has locked containment units in them to seperate and protect the kids from the adults that are also being held, who might, well do bad things to the kids, I pick up kids from cages all the time as a foster parent.

[GirlySports]

Theres just overload. There is no good way to hold the volume of people coming to the border. I said invest in refugee camps but even that has a limit.

[Sliver]

You definitely have to work at not being partisan on these issues.

Trump did seem to approach any border issue with a degree of malice. Biden seems more compassionate. At the end of the day, though, WTF do kids in cages care about the sentiment from the president behind their incarceration?

For solutions? IDK...these are human beings and need to be treated with dignity, which precludes putting them in cages. You can't make it so good for them that it encourages more to come until you've exceeded capacity of your new and improved housing, leading you to house them in crappy conditions again.

Glad it's not my problem. I've yet to hear a solution I like.

[Wastedyouth]

I love how the solution is: Let them out.

Such a simple and stupid answer to a complex question.

It's gross. It's deplorable. It's necessary.

You can't let them out. As badly as it goes for them now, it's far worse out there without a system in place to handle them.

You think that system is easy to set up and fix the current issues, in the middle of pandemic where the previous administration was a complete #### show?

I don't agree with keeping the kids in cages, but I can understand why this hasn't been solved yet.

If this is still an unresolved issue in a year, maybe then have a ####fit over it.

They do have to do something about it, I can understand why they havent yet.