Justin Trudeau says marijuana should be legalized

[Drak]

Originally Posted by peter12

You got it. I am a prison guard.

Green text. Didn't see it before.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by peter12

Summer holidays are the best, hey, Bandwagon.

Wow you've stooped even lower than me. Really thought your whole 'take the high road' approach was the only keeping you afloat in this debate.

You must be tired of bringing up your article in place of actual debating.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Wow you've stooped even lower than me. Really thought your whole 'take the high road' approach was the only keeping you afloat in this debate.

You must be tired of bringing up your article in place of actual debating.

I really can't take this debate any further. I have stated my position, gave evidence, argued why the evidence of the other side is invalid, and that is it. I can't make you change your mind. You seem quite invested in this subject.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by peter12

No one in this thread has said that.

A bunch of dopes have talked about decriminalization, though, which is not legalization. If it's not legal, then there must be some sort of punishment somewhere along the chain of grower, seller, buyer or smoker, or it would be legal.

If you don't want it legalized (certainly there are people in this thread that don't want it legalized), then you are in favour of punishing people somewhere along the way. That bothers me.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Sliver

A bunch of dopes have talked about decriminalization, though, which is not legalization. If it's not legal, then there must be some sort of punishment somewhere along the chain of grower, seller, buyer or smoker, or it would be legal.

If you don't want it legalized (certainly there are people in this thread that don't want it legalized), then you are in favour of punishing people somewhere along the way. That bothers me.

Deal with young, first-time, and small amount offenders with severe fines and community service.

Subject traffickers and the like to severe prison sentences.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Wow peter really scared you with that article hey? This mental illness you speak of only occurs in adolescence who SHOULD NOT be smoking. With it legalized we can spread the facts about smoking and any 12 year old with sense will wait until they are an adult rather then #### up their developing brain.

If this was a major concern it would of been used by these massive industries as evidence to keep it illegal. The more studies we see, the more accepting we become.

Alcohol and Cigarettes are bad for your body. Alcohol is bad for your body AND your mind. Alcohol is responsible for something like 25% of all criminal conduct (domestic violence, bar fights, etc). Cigarettes are the cause of MANY types of cancer.

I don't think it takes a time machine... Just a semi to full functioning brain.

Peter and I happen to share a similar opinion on parts of this debate, no more, no less. My opinion on this issue has been developed long before today's discussion.

Part of my opinion has been formed by anecdotal personal experiences which I've shared earlier.

Another part of my opinion has come from reading a nominal amount of research into the topic, but enough research that a reasonable doubt has been raised in my mind about the safety of a drug we are considering legalizing.

You seem to have a very high opinion of a 12 year old child's ability to make reasoned and informed risk adjusted decisions. Children's brain are literally incapable (physically and mentally) of doing so with any great regularity.

Your points about alcohol and cigarettes further my overall point, as they have both been proven over time to have serious side effects to society on aggregate.

Is it not prudent to evaluate marijuana under the same lens, to determine if there are truly long lasting and potentially severe consequences to habitual usage? Habitual smoking of marijuana can lead to cancer, in similar fashion as cigarettes. And if, on aggregate, there is also the insidious side effect of increasing mental illness in society, should that not then be properly weighed in our considerations?

Also, your comment on a semi-functioning brain is quite ironic, as marijuana has been linked in the past to causing brain sizes to shrink.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by peter12

Deal with young, first-time, and small amount offenders with severe fines and community service.

Subject traffickers and the like to severe prison sentences.

If users are punished and sellers are punished, then it's illegal. You actually want it to remain illegal. That's rude.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Sliver

If users are punished and sellers are punished, then it's illegal. You actually want it to remain illegal. That's rude.

If you were fined or given community service, I don't necessarily think you would have a record, but I could be wrong.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by peter12

If you were fined or given community service, I don't necessarily think you would have a record, but I could be wrong.

But you want to impose our government into my life (if I smoked weed) in a negative, punitive way for doing something relatively harmless and none of your business. I wouldn't do that to you, so why would you do that to other people?

[Coach]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Would we?

That's a pretty firm position to take without having access to a time machine.

How would society be a less violent place if the link to mental illness manifestation and marijuana is proven accurate?

Are all mental health issues correlated to violence? Are all the correlations of mental illness to weed illnesses that have a high probability of violence? How much violence is the result of alcohol abuse? How many people become more violent with alcohol use, even if they are not regular users?

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by peter12

I really can't take this debate any further. I have stated my position, gave evidence, argued why the evidence of the other side is invalid, and that is it. I can't make you change your mind. You seem quite invested in this subject.

I am invested in this subject and have been for the last 10 years. I was even in the 'Students for Sensible Drug Policy' club back at U of C.

I've seen prescription drugs turn America into a society full of addicts. I've seen these prescription drugs ruin peoples lives. Robin Williams and Prince might still be here today if not for these savage industries who don't care about the consumer. I've seen weed improve peoples lives and alcohol destroy them.

As a software engineer I've always highly regarded logic above all else. Look at a problem and find the best solution. Well I'm looking at this problem and very clearly see the ONLY solution.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

I am invested in this subject and have been for the last 10 years. I was even in the 'Students for Sensible Drug Policy' club back at U of C.

I've seen prescription drugs turn America into a society full of addicts. I've seen these prescription drugs ruin peoples lives. Robin Williams and Prince might still be here today if not for these savage industries who don't care about the consumer. I've seen weed improve peoples lives and alcohol destroy them.

As a software engineer I've always highly regarded logic above all else. Look at a problem and find the best solution. Well I'm looking at this problem and very clearly see the ONLY solution.

I absolutely agree with you that prescription medication has been abused, and alcohol is a curse on society.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Are all mental health issues correlated to violence? Are all the correlations of mental illness to weed illnesses that have a high probability of violence? How much violence is the result of alcohol abuse? How many people become more violent with alcohol use, even if they are not regular users?

It is an interesting set of questions.

Not all mental health issues are correlated with violence, certainly not.

The burden of severe mental health issues is substantial, however.

If there is a link between use of marijuana and increased mental health manifestation, then that is a massive societal cost borne by all.

I'm not debating whether or not alcohol makes people make stupid decisions. That one is pretty clear.

The point is, you can't arbitrarily say that by replacing X substance that people abuse with Y substance that people abuse, will definitively have Z as the result.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

The point is, you can't arbitrarily say that by replacing X substance that people abuse with Y substance that people abuse, will definitively have Z as the result.

Nobody is replacing anything (although, yes, you can if those things have definitively different effects on the brain). These things are all being used together currently. Would making it legal have enough of an increase on the percentage of the population that uses it to negate the economic and educational benefits of doing it?

It's just saying that we give the freedom for people to be self destructive, and socially destructive with a variety of substances, why is this one vilified more so, when much research shows that the side effects (or even the intended effects) are no worse, if not better?

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by peter12

I absolutely agree with you that prescription medication has been abused, and alcohol is a curse on society.

I'm glad you can admit this much.

You just need to escape the mentality that legalizing weed is 'adding onto the list of bad'. You need to think of it as a healthier alternative to other readily available drugs.

I agree that we do need to take any necessary measures to ensure it's harder for kids to access and that they are properly educated about the drug instead of just fear it. Cops won't start cracking down on teen weed dealers until it's legalized.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by peter12

I absolutely agree with you that prescription medication has been abused, and alcohol is a curse on society.

But do you want to make those drugs, and alcohol, illegal?

We've tried it before and the increase in crime was substantial.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by MattyC

But do you want to make those drugs, and alcohol, illegal?

We've tried it before and the increase in crime was substantial.

Well, prescription drugs have very, very strict restrictions in place, and alcohol should be more restricted.

I don't see the logic in adding another highly dangerous drug to a plethora substances that are already available.

The public health benefits of Prohibition were profound.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470475/

[IliketoPuck]

For me it's more that there has been a link established to mental health issues, and that this link is not flimsy, and that it has not been disproved definitively.

It is a very personal subject for me.

The people I mentioned earlier that manifested severe mental issues were habitual smokers for a decade beforehand. And it wasn't a gradual thing either where you could see something was wrong for a period of time prior to it occurring (i.e. coping).

It literally happened over the course of 3-4 months when both guys were 23-24. Did their recreational habits contribute? Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't.

I want to know definitively if they increased their risk of manifesting by their actions.

Because if they did, it is one of the most selfish things I've ever witnessed. The burden placed on their families, friends, and the medical system for the rest of their lives is staggering.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by peter12

Well, prescription drugs have very, very strict restrictions in place, and alcohol should be more restricted.

I don't see the logic in adding another highly dangerous drug to a plethora substances that are already available.

In comparison to what? Weed is a lot of things, "highly dangerous" is not one them.

And don't you think those very, very strict restrictions would benefit the people who use this drug, and society as a whole?

I wonder how many things I could pick up in the supermarket that has a higher chance of killing me or someone else than weed. I have a much greater chance of choking on broccoli than I do of my dormant schizophrenia being triggered and me taking it out on a store full of people.

[peter12]

More evidence that legalization greatly increases marijuana use in the young.

https://learnaboutsam.org/wp-content...ruary-2016.pdf