The batman origins were brief and were a pivotal part of the story line, so I argue that point. We might not agree with the way they were used but they were still a big part and it was necessary. How many casual fans would remember the name of batmans mom?
__________________ "In brightest day, in blackest night / No evil shall escape my sight / Let those who worship evil's might / Beware my power, Green Lantern's light!"
There's a lot of negativity in this thread so I will try and pick out some positives now, I thought Wonder Woman was great, I loved how she was just a straight up warrior. I thought it was very accurate how much batman kicked supermans ass when he was weakened as he is definitely better trained in hand to hand combat. One part I loved was batman punching superman in the jaw as he is recovering and it goes from rocking him to hitting a steel plate. I didn't like how surprised batman alaways looked, like he's batman he is prepared for anything and always on top of it. But this is a positive post so I digress.
it will be interesting to see what happens moving forward. All this negativity right before they start filming JLA, maybe some adjustments can still be made.
__________________ "In brightest day, in blackest night / No evil shall escape my sight / Let those who worship evil's might / Beware my power, Green Lantern's light!"
Sa226's long awaited review, that I'm sure most of you have been waiting for on the edge of your seat.
As I go along, I have a feeling this is going to get increasingly negative. But I did enjoy the movie. Want a rating? hmmmm 6.8\10. It would be lower if it was based purely on expectations. Raise it if was just based on me being entertained. I can go along along with logic leaps and plot holes. Even characterizations that are terrible. My pure enjoyment of the film was lowered because of weird editing, pacing issues and crap jammed in that didn't need to be there.
Plot and general story: I liked and could buy the general gist of the plot. Batman and Superman are guys on the same side who have fundamental idealogical differences, they are manipulated by Lex Luthor. Its a rolling boil that slowly boils over into the two iconic characters coming into conflict. They resolve their differences, realize they've been manipulated and go after the real threat. Sure, works for me. But holy crap the execution was terrible. The resolution was a slap in the face to fans of the characters. Yeah the "Martha" thing humanized Superman in the eyes of Batman in that moment. Profound? Maybe. Utter waste of potential, yep. That kind of leads me to the next point that was probably the biggest issue. This was 2.5 movies in one. Batman V Superman, Superman: Doomsday and a Justice League setup. The whole nightmare scene was completely pointless. The time traveller and Parademon bit in the graveyard could have worked, but the whole scene was not at all necessary.
What they should have done was Batman V Superman, then the Justice League. Then do Man of Steel 2 where you bring in Doomsday and kill off Superman. If you're going to kill Superman you have to elevate him to the point where it matters that you do. I didn't really care that they killed Superman in this because I didn't care about the character, and I know that that Cavill is already filming Justice League, so the whole point of the Doomsday story arc is flushed down the toilet.
Characters
Batman: Bright spot. To me, Ben Affleck is a fantastic Batman and an even better Bruce Wayne. He nailed it. That scene where he clears the warehouse and saves Martha is worth the price of admission alone. But why the killing? I could get on board with him killing in his old broken down, depressed, angry and slightly crazy state. But then redeem him once the team up starts. Nope, just straight up murders fools. If they're going to do the "Under the Red Hood" story line, a murderous Batman pretty much destroys the most poignant part of that arc. The Bruce Wayne\Alfred scenes were spot on.
Superman: Ugh, where to begin. Every time they took one step forward with the character, they took three steps back. I'm a Superman fan, no doubt. I don't agree that he's boring and lame. In this new cinematic universe generation of the comic books where every hero is flawed, whats wrong with a Superhero that is good for the sake of being good? Why is that lame? His biggest weakness is that he is pretty much god like, but he still can't be in 2 places at once. He knows that while he is saving one person another is likely dying. He saves the cat out of the tree, while Batman burns down the forest so that the cat can't get into the tree. I actually have no issue with Cavill, I think he is doing a fine job with a freakin tough character. There were moments of the Superman that I wanted to see, but not enough. Basically this version of Supeman is really ####ty at being Superman. Superman wouldn't collapse in front of Lex Luthor desperately trying to gather some polaroids like some sissy pants. I got on board with the killing of Zod as the reason or turning point of Superman's reluctance to kill in MoS, but then he pretty much murders a terrorist in the first scene of this movie. Superman has an issue with Batman's way of doing things. So in the batmobile scene, ol Brucey is wreaking havoc while Superman is hiding behind a corner waiting for the Batmobile to run into him. Everybody thinks Batman is cool, but people need concvincing that Superman is a guy worth rooting for. This movie didn't do that at all. If you're going to kill him, build him up into the guy that was sold to us in the trailers for MoS. I just didn't really care that he died, when I should.
Lois Lane: Not much to say, I like Amy Adams, I think she is a good Lois. But I don't know why she has to be some sort of action sidekick, it feels just as out of place as anything else in the movie.
Lex Luthor: Eisenberg is a very good actor. I have no issue with him. I think he did a great job with what he was given. I just hate this version of Lex. To me the best on screen version of Lex was Rosenbaum from Smallville. Lex is a charming, suave dude that is evil to the core. He's the type of guy that charms and impresses the hell out of you, but leaves you feeling greasy for some reason. He's not some weird acting spoiled brat.
Wonder Woman: Great. Gadot was great and it was the one stuffed in thing that I had no issue with. To me it worked. I liked the intrigue of Bruce Wayne finding the picture of her from 1918.
Doomsday: Could have been more accurate to the comics, but meh. He's a monster
Alfred: Awesome.
Justice League Tease: Ok, but so completely out of place and unnesessary. An after credits thing would have worked much better, but that's too much like Marvel, so people would lose it. I don't know if the tease is just that, a tease. But I'm not a huge fan of the Injustice arc and I think Darkseid is too early for JL Part1. But we'll see.
After I've completely torn this thing to shreds, and sound like a butthurt fanboy, I actually did enjoy it. I'm certainly going to see it again. It just annoys me that after 3 years of anticipation this is what we get. The killing of Jimmy Olsen the CIA agent in the first scene was a microcosm of what they're doing with the DCU. Screw you Silver Age! Bang. I'm looking forward to Justice League, and I think Wonder Woman is going to be a pleasant surprise. While the character issues are there, I am curious to see if the R rated directors cut fixes some of the editing and pacing issues.
Last edited by sa226; 03-27-2016 at 01:58 PM.
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The same way that Paramount gracefully moved away from their creative team after Star : Trek into Darkness, I'm hoping that WB is humble enough to hand the reins over when they see reaction to some of the product being produced. Disney realized quickly that JJ Abrams strength lies in the launching of a franchise, and not the maintenance of its quality past a first introduction, and I am confident that star wars will benefit from that lack of hubris.
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Anyone who really enjoyed that movie has low standards and I envy them as they probably get to really enjoy every movie ever made. The frustrating part of this movie is it could have been so much better. Cut out about an hour's worth of brooding, dream sequences and add some character development of Lex and you have a way better movie. Give Lex some motivation, goals, etc. and then show him manipulate Bats/Supes into fighting. Also, I liked Wonder Women, but how about have her relevant to story somehow? Maybe she could figure out Lex's plan and do a better job of making them kiss and make up instead of name coincidence. I agree with SA226 that throwing in the Doomsday plot at the end was a waste. We never got to see the boy scout hero Superman that everyone loves, so you don't feel anything when he dies. Add in we all know he's coming back with all the Justice League talk and the plot has weight to it.
Didn't they delay releasing this movie? You think with the extra time they could have got it right. I wonder who's idea it was to give away the entire plot in the trailer? Does the director get the final cut on trailers or is that the studio?
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I loved it (twice), even more so after the first hour of set up. Once the action hits it hits hard and fast and doesn't stop until the end. You may not like how Snyder tells a story but his action sequences are off the charts awesome. I dont want to go into any more depth as Im sure most people on this board hate it without even seeing it but I'd give it a solid 8.5-9/10.
Went in with really low expectations and was entertained. Kinda sad that a decade old cartoon has more depth and character and humanity, but it was very nice to look at, and there's nothing wrong with enjoying some candy.
I liked Affleck's Batman and really liked his Bruce Wayne. Luthor, wow, terrible. Wonder Woman was cool, though not enough of her to see if she can carry the character for a movie, but am hopeful.
Was actually kind of disappointed in the music, felt like it had the subtlety of a club.
That's probably the biggest distraction of the movie, it'd probably work better despite the plot and writing if it just didn't try so very very hard. Didn't have to just suspend disbelief, but suspend amusement-at-tryhardness too. Takes itself way too seriously, and has the subtlety of being hit over the head with a bathroom sink.
5.5 or 6 out of 10, but the eye candy is worth seeing on the big screen with the big speakers.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
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Is being hit over the head with a club more or less subtle than being hit over the head with a bathroom sink? What if it was a kitchen sink instead of a bathroom sink?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbo
3) So Batman kills now?
It's Snyder doing a superhero movie. Murder is the only option.
Is being hit over the head with a club more or less subtle than being hit over the head with a bathroom sink? What if it was a kitchen sink instead of a bathroom sink?
I think, if we were to ask Superman after that fight, the conclusion would be bathroom sink is much less subtle.
Batman and wonder woman were the bright spots to the movie. I especially enjoyed the part when Wonder woman showed up. Her score was absolutely perfect because it reflected her Amazonian roots, and her status as a demi-god.
I absolutely hated Lex Luthor. Terrible version of him.
Just saw it and was entertained, even though I wasn't a big fan of the last half hour and ending.
Batman was definitely the best part. I didn't even mind that he killed people, it seemed to fit the darker character. Also, he had clearly changed to be more "good" by the end the movie as shown by not branding Lex.
As far as the other characters go, Superman and WW were okay while I agree Lex Luther was a disappointment. I actually thought Eisenberg gave a good performance but the character was a poorly written villain and they didn't explain his motivations or logic. My least favourite character was Lois though. If they had drastically cut back her scenes while lengthening the BvS battle I would have been very happy.
The major problem with the movie though was trying to do too much. If it was just a Batman v Superman movie with Lex Luther as the villain it may have been excellent but at times it felt like three different movies: MoS 2, BvS, and a Justice League intro. In hindsight WB/DC should have gone the Marvel route by setting up the characters in their own movies.
-Affleck was good as the disillusioned Dark Knight - so much internalized rage
-Alfred as a non-butler was a nice change. Also liked him as a surrogate nagging parent, wanting Bruce to settle down with a nice girl.
-Where have you been all my life, Gal Godot?
-Cinematography was stunning
-Able to appreciate Man of Steel retroactively in this new context
-Justice League introductions
-That cameo at the top of the mountain.
-Gratuitous Amy Adams bath scene doesn't hurt
Things I didn't like:
-Eisenberg as Luthor - just didn't work. It wasn't only him, but the way the character was written.
-Doomsday. Meh.
-The music was a little over the top in scenes.
-I can only deal with one dream sequence per movie.
-It did run a little long.
Overall, really good. Glad I didn't pay attention to the critics.
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We may curse our bad luck that it's sounds like its; who's sounds like whose; they're sounds like their (and there); and you're sounds like your. But if we are grown-ups who have been through full-time education, we have no excuse for muddling them up.
I actually really liked her music but I agree that the music overall had to big of a presence, its like they just kept ramming the theme songs down our throat as they switched around from character to character to character to character.
It played out like a poorly edited episode of Game of Thrones with all the different character views. It was to much.
edit: My response from the other thread with spoilers
They took a risk by going the opposite route of Marvel, introducing their characters all at once and then fleshing out the solo films. It obviously didn't work but it was still a risk, if we are going to start categorizing risks I dare say we are beyond nit picking at this point and generally when you start nitpicking you've already lost focus.
They tried something different with Luthor, they wanted to give us something we have not yet seen, again it didn't work, but it was a risk.
They tried something different with Batman, an established older Batman that is obviously on the edge after 20 years of dealing with scum and losing his side kick to a psychopath. That risk DID work, Batman is agreed upon as being one of the few brightspots of the film despite the initial reaction everyone had to casting Affleck, where all those haters at now btw? By the end of the film he had the brand busted out for Luthor but he held back and decided not to, that was the influence that Superman had on him. I thought that moment was pretty cool and we saw some growth in a character even after 20 years. There was massive leaps in logic to get there, but the end result sat well with me.
They completely changed the Gotham/Metropolis dynamic by having them be twin cities or bay cities and I thought that worked out really well. It made things a lot more personal for Batman and helped us understand why he hates Superman so much.
And they either gave us secret Agent Alfred or he just had picked up enough after 20 years of training with Batman to do the things he does, but it was nice to see him nitty gritty and right in the middle of things helping out, fixing the Batmobile, helping Bruce on the detective side. That has always been one of my favourite parts of the Detective comics and I am glad it came through here.
They took a risk with the whole Martha scene, that did not work out. Snyder thought it was so cool you could tell, but it was just a bit short. I am not sure how they could fix that, I get the idea of it and that was neat but the execution was horrible.
And arguably the biggest risk was introducing Wonder Woman so early. She had a neat part of the story, it set up her solo film and her action scenes were great. The flip side of it, it just complicated things.. I am not sure on this one, I loved her parts but I can't help but think the movie was better off without her. I almost wish that they just had Luthor release a bunch of drones at the end to try and kill BOTH Batman and Superman once they realized they were friends instead of Doomsday, then they just fight their way through the Drones arrest Luthor and there we go. Save Doomsday for Superman 3 and do it right!
The list goes on, but you can't take anything away from Snyder on taking risks or trying to be different, I have to give him credit there. It didn't work out in most cases, and overall that is what really hurt the film, but the few bright spots of the film were things he did take risks on.
__________________ "In brightest day, in blackest night / No evil shall escape my sight / Let those who worship evil's might / Beware my power, Green Lantern's light!"
Last edited by GreenLantern; 03-28-2016 at 10:21 AM.
Deleted scene, doesn't make any sense unless you know the comics, but would explain how Lex randomly seems to know the next big-bad... if it made any sense to anyone other than those who already know who the next big-bad is.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
