Inclusivity and the NHL: We Have a Problem

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Well, that's the crux of the issue right there isn't it. You think someone saying lgbt people just have an immoral hobby is simply an 'opposing viewpoint'

I'd give an in-depth answer but then I'd have a barrage of other posters trying to call me out for semantics. If it isn't an opposing viewpoint, then what is it?

Originally Posted by btimbit

Also, it's been said dozens of times but I'll say it again, nobody has tried to take away his right to say it. We have just as much of a right to call him out for it as he does it, so why will you defend his right to say it while also criticize the people calling him out for it?

The fact that a hockey player not wanting to wear a jersey is headline news doesn't bode well for society.

Originally Posted by btimbit

but you also admitted you're trolling so I guess we're just done here

I'm probably guilty of trolling from time to time. Especially when the discourse devolves into name calling. I'm not sure there are any pejoratives left to call me on CP. But I try.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by btimbit

So are you just using this topic as a tool in the "culture war"? Do you care that what Reimer said is intolerant, or is that irrelevant because it gives you a chance to go after the 'lefties'? Why do you think people calling out intolerance is just group think or the thought police or whatever else you called it as well?

My position is agnostic to political spectrum and lefty vs righty issues. Players should be able to kneel during anthems (I actually don't even think we should play anthems). Players should be able to opt out of the military camouflage days. Players shouldn't have to wear or demonstrate support for anything with fear of retribution or sitting out warmups etc.

Not only is it illiberal but it is counter-productive as it draws attention to the negative over the positive. Why create a system that draws unwanted attention to a player's views?

Frankly, I think people enjoy the quagmire as it allows them to feel good by creating a target upon which they can heap their ideological vitriol.

[FlatLandFlamesFan]

This is from last year , but this is what pride night is about .

https://www.nhl.com/news/you-can-pla...?tid=332359496

This is why it is important and why people like Reimer need to get an education outside of the parts of the Bible they want to read

This is about Understanding ,Acceptance , and Empathy. Three things that should not be difficult for "good" person to figure out

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

See I am more of a glass half full guy. I am old enough to remember when gay marriage was an actual public policy issue and people would talk about slippery slopes involving animals and all sorts of things. And their views were actually taken as something you should listen to. Now people who oppose basic human rights for other human beings are roundly criticized for being the bigots that they are. Their views are seen for the utter hatred that they are. I see our society getting much better in that regard whereas you see it as a negative.

It is a similarly inappropriate slippery slope argument to suggest that a player not willing to wear a pride jersey is going to lead to social carnage. The argument seems to go: Reimer has the ability to steer our culture onto the rocks, so we need to turn his previously private position into a media circus.

People who are unsupportive of individual rights have not been able to slow the progress society has made in the last decade or so (remember when Obama was against gay marriage?). They won't be able to now. So the best policy is to simply take Reimer's position, understand that its his, and proceed to ignore it.

There is no need for the witch hunt and I would argue its actually destructive to progress for all the reasons I mentioned.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

See I am more of a glass half full guy. I am old enough to remember when gay marriage was an actual public policy issue and people would talk about slippery slopes involving animals and all sorts of things. And their views were actually taken as something you should listen to. Now people who oppose basic human rights for other human beings are roundly criticized for being the bigots that they are. Their views are seen for the utter hatred that they are. I see our society getting much better in that regard whereas you see it as a negative.

I'm more of a "you get more flies with honey than with vinegar" sort of guy. Call me literal, but the word "inclusive" doesn't mean we conduct public floggings in the media for wrongthink.

[Manhattanboy]

Funny until now the only thing James Reimer stood out for in my mind was his uber hot wife.

I could not care less what he thinks. That he stops pucks for big money gives him an undeserved platform.

How far the needle has moved as to what’s newsworthy these days.

[btimbit]

Welp I guess if nothing else this has been a distraction from a slow day at work. I guess I'll go reflect on how I'm the bad guy for supporting lgbtq peoples right to exist, and that Reimer's statement saying being gay is just an immoral hobby is just his viewpoint and I should be more accepting and empathetic of that.

####in hell, what a thread

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

It is a similarly inappropriate slippery slope argument to suggest that a player not willing to wear a pride jersey is going to lead to social carnage. The argument seems to go: Reimer has the ability to steer our culture onto the rocks, so we need to turn his previously private position into a media circus.

People who are unsupportive of individual rights have not been able to slow the progress society has made in the last decade or so (remember when Obama was against gay marriage?). They won't be able to now. So the best policy is to simply take Reimer's position, understand that its his, and proceed to ignore it.

There is no need for the witch hunt and I would argue its actually destructive to progress for all the reasons I mentioned.

Highly recommend you check a few US news sources if you think people who are unsupportive if individual rights aren't slowing progress in the US. They are legit reversing progress. The attacks on LGBTQ+ in both literal form (gun violence) and legislative form (removal of rights) are downright frightening.

That is why you have to shine a light on this crap because when you don't things reverse course.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

Highly recommend you check a few US news sources if you think people who are unsupportive if individual rights aren't slowing progress in the US. They are legit reversing progress. The attacks on LGBTQ+ in both literal form (gun violence) and legislative form (removal of rights) are downright frightening.

That is why you have to shine a light on this crap because when you don't things reverse course.

It's a useful point to make and I would argue against anyone trying to limit rights legislatively here or anywhere. But progress is always inconsistent and messy and the long term trend has been positive, which is really great news.

It's also useful as a contrast to Reimer. Legislation is action and we should work to fight that legislation...but it also shows what action looks like and what non-action looks like (ie Reimer). In a messy democracy people can reveal their preferences by voting. I think it's actually more constructive to allow a respectful conversation to take place. But the Reimer situation is an example of people NOT thinking that is valuable. In other words, it is more effective to convince Reimer, through respectful conversation, than it is to come out guns blazing in an inquisition and shout him down or force him to sit out warmups.

I bristle at the intolerance shown in this thread towards Reimer, not because I agree with him (I most assuredly do not), but because I don't think it's the most effective way to convince people of anything.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

It is a similarly inappropriate slippery slope argument to suggest that a player not willing to wear a pride jersey is going to lead to social carnage.

I must have missed those posts where this was being suggested.
Can you point me to those?

[Scroopy Noopers]

The entire purpose of the jerseys is to say “it’s okay to be gay and play hockey with us”. That’s the message, that’s all it is. So if you don’t think that’s okay, then just say it.

[drtory]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Not just a sin, a death sentence!

King James. Leviticus chapter 20, verse 13:

“If a man has intercourse with a man as with a woman, both commit an abomination. They must be put to death.”

The Bible is a very large pile of

Many scholars believe that the translation was a poor one (and with ulterior motives) from what I understand it was more likely translated that “if a man lies with a boy.”

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Funny until now the only thing James Reimer stood out for in my mind was his uber hot wife.

I could not care less what he thinks. That he stops pucks for big money gives him an undeserved platform.

How far the needle has moved as to what’s newsworthy these days.

Do you have any idea what used to be newsworthy? Try googling William Randolph Hearst.

You also don’t care what he thinks because you don’t care about the people he’s excluding and marginalized.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

My position is agnostic to political spectrum and lefty vs righty issues. Players should be able to kneel during anthems (I actually don't even think we should play anthems). Players should be able to opt out of the military camouflage days. Players shouldn't have to wear or demonstrate support for anything with fear of retribution or sitting out warmups etc.

Not only is it illiberal but it is counter-productive as it draws attention to the negative over the positive. Why create a system that draws unwanted attention to a player's views?

Frankly, I think people enjoy the quagmire as it allows them to feel good by creating a target upon which they can heap their ideological vitriol.

Holy hell you are so ####ing full of ####.

You have openly stated that as a fan you have an absolute right to know about Oliver Kylington's personal affairs that have kept him out of the lineup this year. You're waxing on about a system that draws unwanted attention to a player's personal life, and yet you demanded to know about that personal life because it affected your fandom and the success of your team. Even though it was stated many times that it was a private family issue, and that there would be no further comment out of respect for the player, you said you had a right to know. Obviously you can see why this is patently hypocritical?

You're not as liberal as you want to believe, but you sure like dressing yourself up as the "purest liberal" like the old no true scotsman fallacy. Yet many of your positions do not actually line up with liberalism, but more of a neocon libertarianism that isn't really liberal. You can stop pretending now, we all see you for who you are.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Welp I guess if nothing else this has been a distraction from a slow day at work. I guess I'll go reflect on how I'm the bad guy for supporting lgbtq peoples right to exist, and that Reimer's statement saying being gay is just an immoral hobby is just his viewpoint and I should be more accepting and empathetic of that.

####in hell, what a thread

My condolences on having to work on the Lord's Day.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Holy hell you are so ####ing full of ####.

You have openly stated that as a fan you have an absolute right to know about Oliver Kylington's personal affairs that have kept him out of the lineup this year. You're waxing on about a system that draws unwanted attention to a player's personal life, and yet you demanded to know about that personal life because it affected your fandom and the success of your team. Even though it was stated many times that it was a private family issue, and that there would be no further comment out of respect for the player, you said you had a right to know. Obviously you can see why this is patently hypocritical?

You're not as liberal as you want to believe, but you sure like dressing yourself up as the "purest liberal" like the old no true scotsman fallacy. Yet many of your positions do not actually line up with liberalism, but more of a neocon libertarianism that isn't really liberal. You can stop pretending now, we all see you for who you are.

neocon-ism and libertarianism agree on a rather limited number of topics and it is erroneous to conflate them in such a way

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by cannon7

My condolences on having to work on the Lord's Day.

That's okay, I don't have a lord to tell me what's right and what isn't, I get to make those decisions for myself

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by btimbit

That's okay, I don't have a lord to tell me what's right and what isn't, I get to make those decisions for myself

Well god gave us all free will unless it involves jerseys in warmup, in which case you blame god for why you can’t wear it and use that as cover to explain why you won’t.

[MRCboicgy]

Folks, you are letting the bigots in this thread pull this into the sandbox in which they like to play: performing mental gymnastics and railing against intolerance of being intolerant. Forget them, they aren't worth your time.

I wanted to write a great post on what this means to me as a queer person, but I'm tired. I'm tired of having to wonder if that new restaurant in town would be a good place to take a guy on a date. I'm tired of wondering if some delta-bravo at the Dome will dump a beer on me again and call us ######s if do a quick snuggle because the game is going well. I'm tired of wondering who is safe to share personal news with, and who isn't. I could go on.

Because I'm tired, I'll let a random canucks blogger say some things, it's worth reading as it's from the heart, and it lets you know why this matters. It shows a bit of what I have go through my head because I choose to wake up and live my life as myself every day.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1637530805357658112

[Paulie Walnuts]

I think when people say I don't care what a athlete or whatever thinks is just not aware.

These people are paid a lot of money to play a game and they have a big platform. Choosing to use that platform to promote Jesus and being a bigot deserves every single ounce of backlash.

There is a guy who is out of the NFL because he used his platform to bring more awareness to the disgusting racist behaviour in the US.