The intellectual dark web

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

It feels like I can’t watch a single interview with him without some reporter pushing the alt-right on him. It’s tired and ridiculous.

The recent NY times piece lets him speak his mind and he comes off as a bit of a loon. Do we dismiss it as a hit piece?

Mr. Peterson illustrates his arguments with copious references to ancient myths — bringing up stories of witches, biblical allegories and ancient traditions. I ask why these old stories should guide us today.

“It makes sense that a witch lives in a swamp. Yeah,” he says. “Why?”

It’s a hard one.

“Right. That’s right. You don’t know. It’s because those things hang together at a very deep level. Right. Yeah. And it makes sense that an old king lives in a desiccated tower.”

But witches don’t exist, and they don’t live in swamps, I say.

“Yeah, they do. They do exist. They just don’t exist the way you think they exist. They certainly exist. You may say well dragons don’t exist. It’s, like, yes they do — the category predator and the category dragon are the same category. It absolutely exists. It’s a superordinate category. It exists absolutely more than anything else. In fact, it really exists. What exists is not obvious. You say, ‘Well, there’s no such thing as witches.’ Yeah, I know what you mean, but that isn’t what you think when you go see a movie about them. You can’t help but fall into these categories. There’s no escape from them.”

That’s followed up with a call for enforced monogamy? No mentions of trying to tie him to the alt right. A plea to return to “traditional” roles, appealing to men that they are the only ones capable to run things, I can see the allure for some people though. His act is quite Trumpian.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/s...-for-life.html

[burn_this_city]

Labeling people Alt Right is the new way to succumb to Goodwin's Law.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I think, for a lot of people, that’s also why his star power is so confusing. “Try to be your best self before blaming everyone else” is good, solid, safe, and intellectually underwhelming advice. Granted, he’s caught on with people who really need the basics for exactly this reason, but no, his basic life advice and mostly uninspired self-help book are not the reason anyone in society is lining up to “shove” him anywhere.

Exactly - this is a motte and bailey argument. Peterson has a lot to say, and a lot of it is nowhere near this benign. Suggesting that this is all his message entails is misleading.

That being said, generally when he goes on these interviews, he doesn't get into the stuff in his arsenal of ideas that's seriously objectionable or nonsensical. It's a TV interview, so it's all surface level, and at the surface level, Peterson is smart enough to come across as sensible and effective. That's actually part of the problem with his appeal, and these interviews where they utterly fail to "gotcha" him exacerbate the problem. They make him look good and make criticizing him look like an idiot's pastime.

While not everyone who likes Peterson is alt-right, everyone who is alt-right likes Peterson.

I seriously doubt this is true, given that much of the alt-right is made up of white nationalists who are proud to be just that and think it's a righteous movement, whereas Peterson is routinely asked to denounce them on shows like this, and does so. I suspect there are plenty who are not fans of his at all.

[Red Slinger]

I think that's true but he tends to walk a fine line and has even encouraged members of Kekistan (if that's what's it's called) to contribute to his Patreon.

Sometimes I get the impression he is intentionally nebulous to cash in on his likely short-lived fame.

[Scroopy Noopers]

All alt-right stuff aside, I just want to add something.

Stating that you find his self help messages “obvious”, or whatever fun way you choose to word it, isn’t impressing anyone. People have found something in his message and he has sparked a positive change in at least a few individuals lives. They don’t need to be put down because of it. These posts are akin to people telling those who are clinically depressed to “just smile and be happier!”

[Dogbert]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

All alt-right stuff aside, I just want to add something.

Stating that you find his self help messages “obvious”, or whatever fun way you choose to word it, isn’t impressing anyone. People have found something in his message and he has sparked a positive change in at least a few individuals lives. They don’t need to be put down because of it. These posts are akin to people telling those who are clinically depressed to “just smile and be happier!”

Any positive change that involves subscribing to a sexist, racist ideology isn't really positive.

[Cain]

Originally Posted by Dogbert

Any positive change that involves subscribing to a sexist, racist ideology isn't really positive.

Which ideology are you referring to here? Because I'm sure confused.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Dogbert

Any positive change that involves subscribing to a sexist, racist ideology isn't really positive.

How is looking within before blaming society a racist, sexist ideology?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

All alt-right stuff aside, I just want to add something.

Stating that you find his self help messages “obvious”, or whatever fun way you choose to word it, isn’t impressing anyone. People have found something in his message and he has sparked a positive change in at least a few individuals lives. They don’t need to be put down because of it. These posts are akin to people telling those who are clinically depressed to “just smile and be happier!”

Um, no. Telling people to “Sort yourself out, bucko” is what’s akin telling those who are clinically depressed to “just smile and be happier!”

Categorising those messages, and remember, we’re specifically talking about the messages that Cowboy said boil down to “sort yourself out before blaming others” as obvious, is not meant to impress anyone or be divisive. It is as it is. Peterson says much MORE than that along the way in different videos and talks, he actually has a lot to say, but the catchphrase messages he’s known for, the “sort yourself out, bucko”s, are obvious and frankly not notable.

Now, as I said earlier, there is a huge swath of the people who he’s talking to that NEED obvious advice, and to hear it from an intellectual and a father-figure is absolutely essential, because they end up listening.

Take CBT as another potential example. Having gone through it myself, it was extremely helpful, but much of it was so obvious. To most people, if they sit down in a CBT session without any need for it, they’re not going to really learn anything, the sessons may very well seem obvious. For people who have certain issues though, it can be inspiring and groundbreaking. Someone in a role of influence sometimes saying nothing more groundbreaking than “this is where you’re experiencing issues, so break the cycle at this point by thinking differently.”

So, apologies if you find “obvious” offensive. I didn’t mean it to be. But much of what Peterson dolls out as life advice is absolutely obvious, uninspired, or remarkably dull, but (as I said) there are still people who need that. There’s no shame in having troubles in life because you missed the obvious, it happens, and sometimes you need an authority figure to unlock that for you.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Dogbert

Any positive change that involves subscribing to a sexist, racist ideology isn't really positive.

I think this is the problem. A lot of critics of Peterson see this as being the most notable thing about him. A lot of fans see his basic life advice as being the most notable thing about him. The two sides, more often than not, view the other aspect as insignificant, which is why I think Peterson is such a divisive figure right now.

People are absolutely taking from him what they want.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

While not everyone who likes Peterson is alt-right, everyone who is alt-right likes Peterson.

Company you keep (or in this case, court) and all that.

This is preposterous.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

As is the "sexist, racist ideology" smear against the guy.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

So, apologies if you find “obvious” offensive. I didn’t mean it to be. But much of what Peterson dolls out as life advice is absolutely obvious, uninspired, or remarkably dull, but (as I said) there are still people who need that. There’s no shame in having troubles in life because you missed the obvious, it happens, and sometimes you need an authority figure to unlock that for you.

I’m by no means offended. I just find that take on Peterson uninspired and dull.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

I’m by no means offended. I just find that take on Peterson uninspired and dull.

Fair enough, as I said, it wasn’t mean to impress or be a mind-blowing take of any sort.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

While not everyone who likes Peterson is alt-right, everyone who is alt-right likes Peterson.

Company you keep (or in this case, court) and all that.

Still waiting on your moderate/liberal litmus test.

[Dogbert]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

How is looking within before blaming society a racist, sexist ideology?

Looking within? Everything I've read of Jordan Peterson's has been about how white men are victimized because those pesky women and minorities wanted to have jobs and rights.

He is human garbage, as is anyone who agrees with him.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Dogbert

Looking within? Everything I've read of Jordan Peterson's has been about how white men are victimized because those pesky women and minorities wanted to have jobs and rights.

Well, this is a flat out lie.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Dogbert

Looking within? Everything I've read of Jordan Peterson's has been about how white men are victimized because those pesky women and minorities wanted to have jobs and rights.

He is human garbage, as is anyone who agrees with him.

[Cain]

Originally Posted by Dogbert

Looking within? Everything I've read of Jordan Peterson's has been about how white men are victimized because those pesky women and minorities wanted to have jobs and rights.

He is human garbage, as is anyone who agrees with him.

I don't agree with everything Peterson says but this is quite the leap.

If it is everything you've read, can you provide some examples of this? Shouldn't be too hard then.

[CliffFletcher]

This stuff boils down to:

1) Does equality of opportunity always ensures equality of outcomes.

2) If it doesn't, then what, if anything, should be done to ensure equality of outcomes.

Identarian activists take the approach that since we don't see equality of outcomes for all groups, there must be some force working against disadvantaged groups. And since the people who have historically dominated our society are white men, then it must be white men controlling society to keep the disadvantaged down.

It's a theory that's flawed in so many ways that's it's hard to know where to start. But it relies on several false assumptions:

* Outcomes are determined exclusively by social structures.

* The people are the top are powerful enough to control those social structures.

* Equality of outcomes is possible and desirable.

* The people who have dominated our society historically have been white and male, so that means all white people and all males share in privilege.

* Race, gender, and sexual orientation are the only identities that matter. Economic background is not worth talking about.

And there are a couple other beliefs at the root of the dogma that have proven historically to be Very Bad Ideas.

* It's better to regard people as primarily members of their group identities, rather than as unique individuals.

* These issues are so fraught, and disadvantaged groups so fragile, that we must carefully police all discussions around this topic and suppress dissent.