Vancouver is No Good 2

[killer_carlson]

horvat can play. no sense denying that

[Racki]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

horvat can play. no sense denying that

He's been impressive every time I've seen him this preseason. However, with Baertschi, I think it's important to recognize that those five assists that have people singing his praises have all come against the Edmonton Oilers. I wouldn't be getting too excited about him just yet/

[Hockey]

Originally Posted by iggysback05

He's been impressive every time I've seen him this preseason. However, with Baertschi, I think it's important to recognize that those five assists that have people singing his praises have all come against the Edmonton Oilers. I wouldn't be getting too excited about him just yet/

Yeah that's true, but let's not forget that the Oilers are preseason champs and were undefeated before facing the mighty Canucks.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Hockey

Yeah that's true, but let's not forget that the Oilers are preseason champs and were undefeated before facing the mighty Canucks.

The Oilers are typically good in the preseason. This is because they don't have many B-C prospects that they can tryout, so they end up icing their 'A' team for most of the games. Last year they took the preseason super serious because they wanted to build momentum for the regular season. The Canucks were probably the first true A-team they faced off against.

A-team vs. A-team = same old Oilers.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by 868904

You are taking Horvats whole season stats and basing his comparability on that. We are dealing with young players, the progression in their game can change rapidly. At the beginning if the season, the comparison wasn't valid, but by the end of the season Horvat had progressed to the Canucks best player and the comparison became valid. You say he faced weak competition? It didn't matter who the flames had on the ice in the playoffs, he was still their best player and impactful.

I'm not saying Horvat is the better player, I'm saying its a lot closer than you think.

And to reiterate, your point continues to largely hinge on the fact you think it might be a closer comparison in the future / moving forward.

Regardless of everything you just said, it is not an accurate comparable at present.

The difference in minutes, points, and quality of competition is too far apart.

Until such time, it's still extremely premature to contend Horvat is on Monahan's level. Period.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

horvat can play. no sense denying that

I don't see anyone, anywhere denying that.

Saying he's not on Sean Monahan's level isn't denying he can play.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

I don't see anyone, anywhere denying that.

Saying he's not on Sean Monahan's level isn't denying he can play.

True but he looked a hell of a lot better than Monahan in the preseason. Even Warrener this morning on 960 is ripping the Flames for looking like floaters all preseason.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Anyone who takes preseason play as an indicator of how the season will go is a complete idiot. Period.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Anyone who takes preseason play as an indicator of how the season will go is a complete idiot. Period.

Hmmm. Don't recall anyone saying the Flames were going to have a bad season because of the preseason and Horvat was looking pretty good in the playoffs last year so it's safe to say he's probably going to have a decent season. Needless to say your post is a little on the crude side.

Warrener's point was that this team made it's mark last season by being a hard working team and he didn't see that team in the preseason as the team was full of floaters against the Jets Saturday night with only one player standing out for playing the way they did last season.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Hmmm. Don't recall anyone saying the Flames were going to have a bad season because of the preseason and Horvat was looking pretty good in the playoffs last year so it's safe to say he's probably going to have a decent season. Needless to say your post is a little on the crude side.

Warrener's point was that this team made it's mark last season by being a hard working team and he didn't see that team in the preseason as the team was full of floaters against the Jets Saturday night with only one player standing out for playing the way they did last season.

I am speaking generally and not specifically towards the Flames or Horvat's play. People are drawing conclusions way too prematurely across the board. From the Oiler's impressive record, to them waiving Scrivens because of Nilsson's impressive play against preseason B-Teams.

If you've ever watched a preseason before, then you should know that records and play doesn't mean much. It's used for veterans to warm up and rookies to prove themselves. That's it.

For instance, fans are piling on Bouma being underwhelming in the preseason, but do you really expect him to give it his all during meaningless games?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

I am speaking generally and not specifically towards the Flames or Horvat's play. People are drawing conclusions way too prematurely across the board. From the Oiler's impressive record, to them waiving Scrivens because of Nilsson's impressive play against preseason B-Teams.

If you've ever watched a preseason before, then you should know that records and play doesn't mean much. It's used for veterans to warm up and rookies to prove themselves. That's it.

For instance, fans are piling on Bouma being underwhelming in the preseason, but do you really expect him to give it his all during meaningless games?

I don't think anyone believes the Oilers preseason record is of any significance as from night to night the rosters look nothing like they will opening night. I do think it's fair to look at individuals because a guy like Bouma quite frankly isn't good enough to coast even in preseason.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I don't think anyone believes the Oilers preseason record is of any significance as from night to night the rosters look nothing like they will opening night. I do think it's fair to look at individuals because a guy like Bouma quite frankly isn't good enough to coast even in preseason.

I cannot believe you think that. And I know for a fact lots of people have been taking the Oilers preseason record as gospel. When the game you play absolutely destroys your body, then you absolutely coast through preseason. We already know what Bouma brings. We've seen it for 2 seasons. Arbitrators think he's good enough for 2.1mil a season so..

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I don't think anyone believes the Oilers preseason record is of any significance as from night to night the rosters look nothing like they will opening night. I do think it's fair to look at individuals because a guy like Bouma quite frankly isn't good enough to coast even in preseason.

Not sure if Brad or Bob told Lance that he better be throwing his hands out to block 100MPH shots during preseason or he'll be dumped to the minors.

Bouma wasn't coasting in my opinion. Bouma was playing preseason hockey which is about basically warming up and shaking off some rust.

[FBI]

Likely bob told Bouma and ferland to tone it back a bit and not get injured in preseason. Regular season watch out though.

[Galakanokis]

A lot of unknowns on the Canucks. Three rookies make the team, a very unproven Sven and as far as I can tell Adam Cracknell? Ballsy moves Benning.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Bouma's only goal this pre-season should have been to do whatever he needed to do to be ready on Wednesday and beyond, and not take any un-necessary risks with his health.

You do need to find the right balance to create the right culture as a Vet in the preseason which I'm sure is hard to do, but Bouma wasn't competing for a job this year, nor should he have been. He's earned his spot over the past few seasons, he should not have been able to lose his position in the pre-season, and he should have played accordingly.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

True but he looked a hell of a lot better than Monahan in the preseason.

So did the Edmonton Oilers. I honestly thought you were being facetious. The fact you are serious is almost funny.

Again, when Horvat goes on to put up #1 Centre numbers playing against the league's best, there can be a valid conversation about how they are comparable players.

The pre-season did nothing to bolster that discussion.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

So did the Edmonton Oilers. I honestly thought you were being facetious. The fact you are serious is almost funny.

Again, when Horvat goes on to put up #1 Centre numbers playing against the league's best, there can be a valid conversation about how they are comparable players.

The pre-season did nothing to bolster that discussion.

I realize this is a Flames forum therefore we have to hate everything about the Canucks but IMO Horvat was the best player I saw in preseason on any team so excuse me for pointing that out.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I realize this is a Flames forum therefore we have to hate everything about the Canucks but IMO Horvat was the best player I saw in preseason on any team so excuse me for pointing that out.

You are the 2nd person in the last page who seems to be confusing hate / giving zero credit with pointing out that Horvat isn't close to Monahan's level at present.

Shame, because it's not a difficult concept to grasp.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

You are the 2nd person in the last page who seems to be confusing hate / giving zero credit with pointing out that Horvat isn't close to Monahan's level at present.

Shame, because it's not a difficult concept to grasp.

Which is why I don't understand why you are having such a hissy fit. I thought the kid looked really good in the preseason and was the Canucks best forward in the playoffs and if he can play like that in the regular season I don't think the comparison's are that far fetched. Monahan after all has one more full NHL season under his belt so we will have to see how Horvat progresses in the regular season.

I don't agree with Canucks fans saying he's already as good as Monahan but I also don't agree with Flames fans that seem to think that it's not even close. We won't know the answer until these guys are in or past their mid-20's.