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Old 01-13-2021, 04:10 PM   #4281
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You're right, semantics. It's not about the distance or method of travel. It's about the rules and advisories at the time and her own government asking for people to follow not just the letter of the law but the spirit of the law. Spending the night with family over the holidays is not essential, as evidenced by the sacrifices of many Albertans who chose not to do so.

The incident on its own would be unfortunate but politics is also about exercising judgement in how you respond to events, and Miranda Rosin has been acting like her #### don't stink while her colleagues took fire. In fact, she piled on and even condemned their actions. Meanwhile, she's been questioned and continually tried to skate by on technicalities like the fact that she drove, or that she was skating and baking cookies, or that it wasn't international instead of simply being upfront and admitting the mistake.

Personally, I've never asked that she but fired, but I'm not opposed to it either. I do agree there is a difference between international travel and going to Saskatchewan. BUT the rules and recommendations are what they are, and neither one was OK at the time. In fact, Rosin's trip actually broke the rules not just the recommendations.

So if she broke the rules and tried to hide it, how should we judge her? Maybe we could all agree to just judge her based on her own standards and be done with it. So with that in mind, here's what she said as recently as Jan 5... will she face consequences for her poor decision making?

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"Unfortunately, poor judgment cannot be tolerated for those whom we entrust to govern our societies, and consequences must be faced for poor decision making"
- Miranda Rosin, Jan 5.


Now, by all means please share your information about this prominent elected official who has routinely travelled 1500km and we can all take a look at the facts - what was the purpose of the travel, what were the rules and requests of the government at the time, how did they respond when questioned on it, what have they said about accountability in the past, etc. But it's not like someone else making a mistake gets Miranda Rosin off the hook. If it's as serious as you make it sound, maybe you should just email the CBC already?

I personally agree with the standard Plett25 issued a page or so ago:

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Professional codes of conduct routinely require to not only avoid impropriety, but also to avoid the appearance of impropriety. If your justification for an action is "not technically illegal" you have failed.

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Old 01-13-2021, 04:11 PM   #4282
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Since I can only guess at who you're referring to, I have two thoughts in my mind:

1. I don't know who you're trying to refer to, and you've made it sound quite serious, so you should probably come out with it.

2. I do know who you're referring to, and it's one of the most uniquely perverse and juvenile distortions of the truth to make a point I have ever seen, to the point of making you look completely ridiculous.

So, I'm hoping it's not the second one. Who is it? Come out with the details.

Because I would sure hope this individual wasn't travelling 30 minutes each way every few days to go home to their family. I mean, that sounds an awful lot like a commute. And you wouldn't go so low as to try to use that as an equivalent, would you?
No to the bold. And based on that no to #2 as well. It's not a technicality like that.

And if you haven't noticed despite political differences we are actually on the same page on the issue that something are truly not as big a deal as they are portrayed to be and not everything is equal. I just want to hear from those proclaim that what Rosin did is worthy of the same level of disgust as an Allard or a Phillips (which I do believe they should have resigned).

I want a non biased reply not know who it can be, to get the partisanship equation out of the reply.
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Old 01-13-2021, 04:25 PM   #4283
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It's about the rules and advisories at the time and her own government asking for people to follow not just the letter of the law but the spirit of the law.
I feel like the spirit of the law was to allow those who lived alone to, relatively safely, visit family during Christmas. That appears to be what happened here, so I think it's a huge difference between Hawaii.

I do think that her being less than forthcoming and clearly hoping to not get revealed says more about her character than taking a car to her mother's home though. That should be the real story.
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Old 01-13-2021, 04:25 PM   #4284
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No to the bold. And based on that no to #2 as well. It's not a technicality like that.

And if you haven't noticed despite political differences we are actually on the same page on the issue that something are truly not as big a deal as they are portrayed to be and not everything is equal. I just want to hear from those proclaim that what Rosin did is worthy of the same level of disgust as an Allard or a Phillips (which I do believe they should have resigned).

I want a non biased reply not know who it can be, to get the partisanship equation out of the reply.
No, I know we're roughly on the same side with this one. I think we differ in the sense that I'm not necessarily sure everyone is asking for the exact same punishment here. I think there's more nuance than some people are giving credit for.

That said, happy to know it's not the second one, apologies for making the leap, but it's tough to judge a situation at first blush without knowing how accurate the information is.

If it is exactly as you say, someone making multiple 1500km trips for non-essential/leisure/vacation travel or whatever, then sure, whoever it is seems like they belong in this conversation regardless of political stripe. But you're going to have to mention who it is.

EDIT: Or at least give details on where they travelled and why.

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Old 01-13-2021, 04:32 PM   #4285
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I feel like the spirit of the law was to allow those who lived alone to, relatively safely, visit family during Christmas. That appears to be what happened here, so I think it's a huge difference between Hawaii.

I do think that her being less than forthcoming and clearly hoping to not get revealed says more about her character than taking a car to her mother's home though. That should be the real story.
Sorry, I edited a few more things into my post so this might not have been there at the time you quoted me, but I wanted to point this out:

Common sense says there's a difference between Rosin going to Saskatchewan to visit her family and Allard taking a flight to Hawaii for a vacation -- I can agree with that.

However one of the interesting differences between Rosin and Allard is that Rosin's trip was actually against the rules, not just the recommendations. The rules allowed an exception for a single person to visit, but they didn't allow spending the night (or multiple nights for that matter).

It's not like we can hold UCP arguments to some kind of logical consistency as they tend to use whatever justification is convenient, but by his own (very low) standard from the Jan 1 press conference, Jason Kenney should have cause to sanction her for this.

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Old 01-13-2021, 04:35 PM   #4286
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Now, by all means pleas share your information about this prominent elected official who has routinely travelled 1500km and we can all take a look at the facts - what was the purpose of the travel, what were the rules and requests of the government at the time, how did they respond when questioned on it, what have they said about accountability in the past, etc.

But it's not like someone else making a mistake gets Miranda Rosin off the hook. If it's as serious as you make it sound, maybe you should just email the CBC already?
The CBC chose not to report on it, as it was none other than our health minister when it came to light.

nationalpost.com/news/politics/liberal-ministers-hajdu-duclos-travelled-often-during-pandemic-even-while-warning-public-to-stay-home

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During one press conference in March she said it was imperative that people did everything possible to avoid spreading the virus.

“This is very serious and just because you’re not feeling the illness or you don’t have it necessarily in your community, even one case; what we’re trying to do, so diligently together at all levels of government, is prevent this disease from spreading towards other communities.”

According to the government’s online travel disclosure, Hajdu travelled to her riding between April 3 and 6, April 10 and 13, April 30 and May 4, as well as between May 15 and 19, all on the government’s aircraft.

On Sunday April 12, Easter weekend, Hajdu tweeted, “It’s important to remember that now is not the time for gatherings with family and friends. Connect with others with a phone call or video chat instead.”

The next day, she returned to Ottawa after having spent the weekend in her riding with family.
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Conservative MP John Brassard said he had assumed the ministers were staying in Ottawa and following their own advice.

“I presumed, probably like most Canadians did, that as they engaged in these daily briefings, that they weren’t going anywhere because the rest of us weren’t going anywhere, but that clearly is not the case.”

He said it was troubling to see the ministers were saying one thing to the public and doing something else.

“The fact that they were asking Canadians to effectively stay at home, avoid visiting friends, family, and their loved ones, shows hypocrisy on their part,” he said. “It just once again shows, as well, that there’s two sets of rules in this country; one for for Liberals and a set of rules for everyone else.”
And yes in hindsight that coming from a conservative with current revelations is hypocritical as well.

I just want to know where the pitchforks were at the time as she directly contradicted her own instructions to Canadians. You can discuss it on the Canadian Federal Election thread if you guys are so passionate about Rosin's trip to her mother's house in Saskatchewan. I am for sure looking forward to your responses or the reasons on why this is different.

The only argument would be that she was going back to her constituency, but all other MPs at the time either kept to virtual or stayed in residence within Ottawa and made those sacrifices except herself, and this was a time where there were strict no travel guidelines by herself.

It's extremely hard to justify an Easter weekend family trip.

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=179782
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Old 01-13-2021, 04:42 PM   #4287
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However one of the interesting differences between Rosin and Allard is that Rosin's trip was actually against the rules, not just the recommendations. The rules allowed an exception for a single person to visit, but they didn't allow spending the night (or multiple nights for that matter).
If you're getting into technicalities, then what was quoted before was for out-of-town visitors to Alberta, not for out-of-town visitor from Alberta.

She, I'll assume, adhered to the Saskatchewan public health order of:

>All indoor gatherings in private dwellings are limited to immediate households only (individuals, who live on their own, are permitted to meet with one household of less than five and always the same household). Co-parenting arrangements are permitted to continue.
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Old 01-13-2021, 04:43 PM   #4288
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No, I know we're roughly on the same side with this one. I think we differ in the sense that I'm not necessarily sure everyone is asking for the exact same punishment here. I think there's more nuance than some people are giving credit for.

That said, happy to know it's not the second one, apologies for making the leap, but it's tough to judge a situation at first blush without knowing how accurate the information is.

If it is exactly as you say, someone making multiple 1500km trips for non-essential/leisure/vacation travel or whatever, then sure, whoever it is seems like they belong in this conversation regardless of political stripe. But you're going to have to mention who it is.

EDIT: Or at least give details on where they travelled and why.
Trudeau's actually be very good in terms of travel, and honestly I am in the camp that normal stuff or little hiccups is not news. I know of the controversy of him travelling to Gatineau, I think it's total crap and BS and a non-event.

Hawaii trips by a policy maker during Christmas while telling Canadians to stay home is grounds to resign.

A chief of staff to the mayor going to Hawaii is not grounds for anyone to resign as travel is not illegal.

An MLA travelling out of province to her mother is not grounds to resign (my opinion).

But if we are going down the route of a witchhunt, be uniform about it and go after major policy makers like Hadju as well (which I do believe should resign, but not as strongly as the Hawaii, Mexico and Barbados travellers).

I feel some are going to this witchhunt because of this MLA's party, not because of what she did, as these same posters were totally quiet on bigger issues.

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Old 01-13-2021, 04:46 PM   #4289
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But if we are going down the route of a witchhunt, be uniform about it
Didn't you just say that the difference for you is between driving and flying?

That's not uniform in the slightest. That's adjudicating on modes of transportation, which determines who should be punished and who shouldn't.

You can't take this position without being hypocritical yourself.
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Old 01-13-2021, 04:48 PM   #4290
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Didn't you just say that the difference for you is between driving and flying?

That's not uniform in the slightest. That's adjudicating on modes of transportation, which determines who should be punished and who shouldn't.

You can't take this position without being hypocritical yourself.
I never stated the difference is between driving and flying. They could teleport for all I care. Reread my posts.
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Old 01-13-2021, 04:49 PM   #4291
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If someone took their private plane somewhere to a private cabin, I would have less than 0 issues given they didn't actually come into contact with anyone (you know the whole point of what we're trying to stop/limit).

If we can't differentiate between the risk of traveling alone in a vehicle (of which there is pretty much none) and traveling with hundreds of strangers from different parts of the world, I'd say we lost the plot.
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Old 01-13-2021, 04:55 PM   #4292
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So a number of people from one side seems to be that travelling a few hours (700km) to see their mother on Christmas is enough grounds to resign. And that this should have the same penalty as a government official who travelled to Hawaii or Barbados.

Ok...sure.
Sorry, it wasn't method - it was distance. Either way, you're kind of making confusing statements here, especially if you're saying method and distance don't matter. You're passively wrapping your shades of grey for distance travelled into words that sound like you're objective on this issue.
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Old 01-13-2021, 04:57 PM   #4293
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The CBC chose not to report on it, as it was none other than our health minister when it came to light.

And yes in hindsight that coming from a conservative with current revelations is hypocritical as well.

I just want to know where the pitchforks were at the time as she directly contradicted her own instructions to Canadians. You can discuss it on the Canadian Federal Election thread if you guys are so passionate about Rosin's trip to her mother's house in Saskatchewan. I am for sure looking forward to your responses or the reasons on why this is different.

The only argument would be that she was going back to her constituency, but all other MPs at the time either kept to virtual or stayed in residence within Ottawa and made those sacrifices except herself, and this was a time where there were strict no travel guidelines by herself.

It's extremely hard to justify an Easter weekend family trip.

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=179782
To be fair to people here, nobody is dredging up travel from 7 months ago, are they? Most of this is focused on the past month, so it shouldn't be surprising that nobody is talking about it or that our ire for certain things have changed over 7 months.

To me, the Hajdu issue is almost entirely different. She was travelling home, where she actually lives, in the riding she's an MP for, and fulfilled duties as an MP while she was there. I think everyone can agree that travelling to work, or to your home, is reasonable. The issue there is the absolutely insane cost attached.

I know you're trying to get a non-partisan response for it, but I don't think you need to make this into some "watch the partisans try to spin this one" thing. I don't know of any left-wing partisan Albertans who personally give a #### about defending Patty Hajdu of all people lol. It's not like anyone is upset about politicians travelling to and from work, regardless of distance. People are upset about international and interprovincial vacations, not ridiculous commutes.

Nobody here is on Kenney for travelling back and forth between the Alberta Legislature in Edmonton and his home in Calgary. That's a more similar situation to Hajdu than Rosin.
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Old 01-13-2021, 05:17 PM   #4294
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To be fair to people here, nobody is dredging up travel from 7 months ago, are they? Most of this is focused on the past month, so it shouldn't be surprising that nobody is talking about it or that our ire for certain things have changed over 7 months.

To me, the Hajdu issue is almost entirely different. She was travelling home, where she actually lives, in the riding she's an MP for, and fulfilled duties as an MP while she was there. I think everyone can agree that travelling to work, or to your home, is reasonable. The issue there is the absolutely insane cost attached.

I know you're trying to get a non-partisan response for it, but I don't think you need to make this into some "watch the partisans try to spin this one" thing. I don't know of any left-wing partisan Albertans who personally give a #### about defending Patty Hajdu of all people lol. It's not like anyone is upset about politicians travelling to and from work, regardless of distance. People are upset about international and interprovincial vacations, not ridiculous commutes.

Nobody here is on Kenney for travelling back and forth between the Alberta Legislature in Edmonton and his home in Calgary. That's a more similar situation to Hajdu than Rosin.
No one talked about Hadju at the time, because by then people were out partying outside for having 'beaten' pandemic. Conservatives did say the travel was hypocritical, but they were passed as whiners at the time.

And that's the problem. Had the news about her travel broke out in April, I still think this would have been deflected. It was ok to have parties back in July. Now it's not ok to have another person in the house.

Personally to me, the fact that we are looking through photos to determine that someone was at their mother's house regardless of party affiliation or level of government is where the line goes into the absurd. I'm not on a political stance on this one, but a common sense. I would defend a NDP MLA the same way I did a UCP MLA, and the same way I defended Nenshi.

Note I am in no way defending Allard here, or the idiotic virtual meeting with beach sounds behind. Some actions have consequences.

That's why I want to know the line for some calling for Rosin to apologize or resign. People are making it a point that the only line is to go against recommendations, no matter the level of severity. If it's travel. I would think that the line should be international travel in current state, but apparently to some, the mere act of leaving the house for non-essential reasons is enough to shame.

Because if Rosin crossed it for family reasons, Hadju more then crossed it back in Easter for family reasons when travel was way more of a taboo than it currently is. I mean she's not exactly going to door on Easter or attending an Easter event, or do work that she would not be able to do remotely in Ottawa that every other MP could do.

And I'm using Hadju as an example, because it was a pretty blatant disregard of public health measures at the time, and there is no NDP MLA that did grandiose travel (and good on them). I think the NDP did a great job for getting MLA's in check.

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Old 01-13-2021, 09:15 PM   #4295
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But if we are going down the route of a witchhunt, be uniform about it and go after major policy makers like Hadju as well (which I do believe should resign, but not as strongly as the Hawaii, Mexico and Barbados travellers).

I feel some are going to this witchhunt because of this MLA's party, not because of what she did, as these same posters were totally quiet on bigger issues.
But these aren’t uniform offences, nor can they really be treated as such.

Rosin travelling isn’t the same as Rehn or Allard or Nixon, but that doesn’t make it not worthy Rolf derision, especially after her rhetoric and statements right before. She’s also can’t be stripped of any positions. She’s a backbencher who just has gotten more press than a typical backbencher who made the mistake of calling out MLAs for travelling when she also travelled.

For Allard losing a cabinet post is basically the minimum. For Rosin the negative press is fine. Having a uniform solution is dumb because then it would be based off the worst offenders and not offer any room for nuance. And I love nuance.
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Old 01-14-2021, 08:01 AM   #4296
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Not one person said the NDP should be gods chosen party (and nice choice of words, I prefer to keep religion out of politics). The argument is that they are a very good alternative to the current fiasco, and very centrist.
If I offended you by using the word 'god' than just it as an expression, commonly used pleased.

Your argument may be that in this post, but that isn't how you have responded to me.

You consistently shift way from any critics of the NDP to the UCP.

You hand waive away any issues.
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Old 01-14-2021, 08:01 AM   #4297
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I understand where you're coming from, but where do you draw the line? If an MLA visited their mother within the same city, is that OK? How about another city within Alberta? Does it really change things if they crossed what is essentially an imaginary line to visit their mother? Say the mother lived in Lloydminster...should someone be able to visit on one side because they stayed in the province, but the other side we're chastising them and say they ought to have known better?

And the province said stay home, but also said that a single person could visit one other family unit. I had my mother come to my home for dinner as that was allowed. I would have broken the rules and had her over for dinner that day anyway, because I feel that the consequences of prolonged isolation for some people are as concerning as Covid.
I draw the line at people from the government not doing things the government has told me not to do.
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Old 01-14-2021, 08:26 AM   #4298
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CBC is trying to help everyone out. pretty much what we already know.

This is where your MLA was during the holidays

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...days-1.5870195

Many elected officials have posted statements on social media or responded to constituents' queries about where they spent the holidays.

In the absence of a complete accounting, CBC News asked the caucuses where each member was during the holiday season and followed up with individual MLAs.

NDP Leader Rachel Notley said none of her MLAs left Alberta. Neither the premier's office nor the UCP caucus responded to requests for a full list of where their members were.

Two MLAs' whereabouts (Drew Barnes and Miranda Rosin) have still not been confirmed, despite a dozen requests made to the UCP caucus, the constituency offices and directly to the officials over the span of a week.
Seriously how many more UCP MLAs need to get outed going out of country on vacation? Fricking ridiculous that there are so many continuous 'errors in judgement' or 'one time mistakes'. Worse is they know how many are out and won't reveal it.
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Old 01-14-2021, 09:06 AM   #4299
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Old 01-14-2021, 09:18 AM   #4300
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Anyway, to move past the vacation stuff and move onto other things the UCP is looking into adding boards to govern universities, colleges and polytechnic institutions.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...eges-1.5871020
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