Poll: Hearts and Minds - Who is winning the Arena PR battle so far?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by SportsJunky

Blue Stratos?
Hai Karate?

Sex Panther

[Jimdon]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Is it? Let us know the economics of the project? One has to assume right now an new arena will generate massively higher incremental revenue than the suggested $5m increase in incremental cost through property taxes.

Easy solution to this problem for the Flames if this is true - open up their financial model for revenues. Are we supposed to just take their word for it, that this is a losing proposition?

Is there not enough comparables with 2 arenas built with private finds causing the owners abandon ship in the recent past? The one thing that no one has provided so far is to lay out how a fully private funds arena would create profit for the ownership. If it's as easy as them paying for it and then reaping the rewards why isn't the business model there to show the return on their investment?

The flames have definitely came out on the poor side of PR here, but so far nobody has called them out that their offer of paying 1/3 for the arena really isn't true. My bank have me a mortgage to buy my house when I put 5% down, but nobody would suggest that they paid 95% for my house

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Bingo

To me the PR thing was lost early with an assumption of the Edmonton model.

I've said 100 times that it was a logical thing to ask for, but they didn't explain it correctly. For that they have King to blame for glib remarks but themselves to blame for not having a better strategy and/or expectation for what was coming from the city and the public.

Well...

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...&postcount=888

Originally Posted by frinkprof

*snip*
Also, what we know about the timeline (roughly) is:

- CSEC starts to get serious about their vision and has a few meetings with City officials and the mayor. They are told West Village is a bad idea, based on the above, and that the City would be hesitant to support it, at best.

- CSEC goes ahead with West Village vision anyway, meanwhile mayor and coucilors put out not so subtle hints that there is no appetite for the Edmonton deal.

- CSEC holds a bad public presentation about their ill-advised West Village vision before submitting anything formal to the City in terms of either a land use application, development permit or business proposition.

The presentation is CSEC trying to jump past any formal engagement about the specific project with the City to try to garner emotional support from the populace. That's playing politics.
/*snip*

So if they didn't know what was coming from city hall they're just lying (or at best they're just incompetent) and if they didn't know what was coming from the public they are indeed out of touch with the city.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Well...

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...&postcount=888




So if they didn't know what was coming from city hall they're just lying (or at best they're just incompetent) and if they didn't know what was coming from the public they are indeed out of touch with the city.

Could come down to them thinking the city representatives were being short sighted and by getting it to the masses they'd gain support.

That's my guess any way.

[Peanut]

I ordered a Nenshi sign for my lawn and I've seen another ~5 Nenshi signs spring up within a block or two of my house in the past few days. Might be a coincidence, obviously is anecdotal, but this Ken King gong show spurred me to order a Nenshi sign myself, so other people might be doing the same.

[OldDutch]

I have been a pretty harsh critic of the Flames here and called Nenshi out as well. I have mentioned before when the Flames were about to anounce CalgaryNext I got in a Facebook debate with Druh Farell calling her out for preemptively calling all stadiums as a waste. I stood up for the Flames then, and then subsequently felt like a buffoon a day later.

That said if next week the Flames drop some creative offer with an epic arena design I'll seriously look at supporting them again.

It's just that the odds of that given their behavior and track record is not good. I will keep an open mind however. I am sure most others will as well. In the end I think everyone just wants a great team and great stadium that doesn't hose us taxpayers.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jimdon

Is there not enough comparables with 2 arenas built with private finds causing the owners abandon ship in the recent past? The one thing that no one has provided so far is to lay out how a fully private funds arena would create profit for the ownership. If it's as easy as them paying for it and then reaping the rewards why isn't the business model there to show the return on their investment?

The flames have definitely came out on the poor side of PR here, but so far nobody has called them out that their offer of paying 1/3 for the arena really isn't true. My bank have me a mortgage to buy my house when I put 5% down, but nobody would suggest that they paid 95% for my house

But you are paying interest and principal to the bank and property taxes to the city, yet the city didn't loan you the money. If they had, and only asked you to pay property taxes that would be a helluva deal.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Sex Panther

60% of the time, it works every time!

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by New Era

60% of the time, it works every time!

I guess Friday was one of the 40% for Mr. King.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Jimdon

Is there not enough comparables with 2 arenas built with private finds causing the owners abandon ship in the recent past? The one thing that no one has provided so far is to lay out how a fully private funds arena would create profit for the ownership. If it's as easy as them paying for it and then reaping the rewards why isn't the business model there to show the return on their investment?

The flames have definitely came out on the poor side of PR here, but so far nobody has called them out that their offer of paying 1/3 for the arena really isn't true. My bank have me a mortgage to buy my house when I put 5% down, but nobody would suggest that they paid 95% for my house

This might be a place where the Flames win the public perception.

That the flames have convinced people that paying property taxes is the flames reimbursing the city is a big win. Instead of it being a 185 million dollar subsidy with no tax subsidy it's framed as the city loaningbthe flames money and getting paid back.

The fact the the city is currently subsidizing the flames by giving them a tax free and almost rent free arena is lost in the conversation.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by GGG

That the flames have convinced people that paying property taxes is the flames reimbursing the city is a big win.

It would have been if they'd accepted the deal... instead I'm sure you have a bunch of homeowners incensed that the Flames think it's unfair for them to pay property tax (like every other property owner) on a building that they're getting 1/3 off.

[Pliddy]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Sex Panther

Made with actual bits of panther!

[Pliddy]

I am surprised that the fact Murray Edwards moved to the UK to minimize taxes has not been made a bigger deal. That was the moment that I lost all respect and support for CSEC (I'll be a Flames Fan for life, but as a corporation...not so much). The optics of dodging taxes out of one side of your mouth, only to demand hundreds of millions of tax dollars out of the other side of your mouth stinks. The only thing worse is the arrogance that comes from not giving a crap about what you look like because you think you have the city by the short hairs anyway

[NiklasSundblad]

Originally Posted by GGG

This might be a place where the Flames win the public perception.

That the flames have convinced people that paying property taxes is the flames reimbursing the city is a big win.

It is a big win for the Flames. The reason they've not managed to seemingly gain any public support is because they're acting like it's not only not a win, but some sort of insult.

https://youtu.be/-JvtlB_NzI8

Like that.


Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Pliddy

I am surprised that the fact Murray Edwards moved to the UK to minimize taxes has not been made a bigger deal. That was the moment that I lost all respect and support for CSEC (I'll be a Flames Fan for life, but as a corporation...not so much). The optics of dodging taxes out of one side of your mouth, only to demand hundreds of millions of tax dollars out of the other side of your mouth stinks. The only thing worse is the arrogance that comes from not giving a crap about what you look like because you think you have the city by the short hairs anyway

You know for a fact that the only reason he moved was to not pay taxes?

Also he still owns property here so he's paying city taxes.

[NiklasSundblad]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

You know for a fact that the only reason he moved was to not pay taxes?

Also he still owns property here so he's paying city taxes.

Also, there's nothing to be gained by going out of the way to make it personal. Attack the proposal, attack the message, the arrogant tone, shoot the messenger etc. Calling out individuals on personal life decisions because they may have tangential ironic parallels to the actual issue at hand is just muddying the debate.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by GGG

This might be a place where the Flames win the public perception.

That the flames have convinced people that paying property taxes is the flames reimbursing the city is a big win. Instead of it being a 185 million dollar subsidy with no tax subsidy it's framed as the city loaningbthe flames money and getting paid back.

The fact the the city is currently subsidizing the flames by giving them a tax free and almost rent free arena is lost in the conversation.

I think the notion that the Flames could win the public perception battle is, at this point, highly improbable.

Over 70% of a message board comprised entirely of die hard devotees of the team think the team has #### the money bed on this one. If they can't convince us that it's a good idea, I find it difficult to believe the rest of the city is an easier sell.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Over 70% of a message board comprised entirely of die hard devotees of the team think the team has #### the money bed on this one. If they can't convince us that it's a good idea, I find it difficult to believe the rest of the city is an easier sell.

I'm not 100% convinced of this sentiment.

One thing to keep in mind is that most of the fans on here are pretty engaged...they are probably better informed about the details and debates regarding the pros and cons of the arena. And I would suggest that the more informed people are about this and the general debate about new sports arenas, the more skeptical people tend to be about the Flames' plans.

The casual fan, or the man on the street, might not have the entire picture...they might just be thinking in simpler terms. Ie "Flames are good for the community. Let's support the Flames" and not know or care about the financial intricacies.

The way Ken King talks, you can tell he's trying to keep the discussion at this level, and speak to this second group of people. I'm not surprised... because it's probably the only way he can "win" this battle.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I think the notion that the Flames could win the public perception battle is, at this point, highly improbable.

Over 70% of a message board comprised entirely of die hard devotees of the team think the team has #### the money bed on this one. If they can't convince us that it's a good idea, I find it difficult to believe the rest of the city is an easier sell.

I don't think they ever really had a chance to win that battle. Outside of exceptional cases, most owners are generally maligned during stadium negotiations - but they still get what they want.