[Rumour] Friedman: Flames maybe one of the teams interested in Duchene?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Insufficient Funds

That would be a really good return for Dushene.

How about using those picks as pieces in a trade for the type of player you described? I think that's part of the problem in COL, they don't seem to have any imagination on approaching this from different angles.

Too risky IMO. Who's trading a key young player for draft picks? Almost no one. Why would anyone trade a really good young player for picks? I mean we saw it with the Hamilton deal but those types of trades happen almost never. Would we trade Bennett, Tkachuk, Monahan or Gaudreau for picks? No. Would we trade Brodie or Hamilton for picks? No. Try to imagine what team what trade a good young potential franchise player for picks? Pretty hard to imagine isn't it? Players are typically traded for picks solely because they are cap dumps and good young potential franchise players are often cheaper and rarely traded as cap dumps.

They HAVE to get the right piece back in the actual Duchene deal. You cannot bank on trading picks for young players. You can trade picks for veterans but that's not the type of player they need back.

They need a Johansen for Jones type deal basically. A swap of two good young players.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by starseed

Side question - now that we can look back with 4 years of hindsight, what happened behind the scenes on that offer sheet to O'Reilly? Did Feaster just not do his homework on the possibility of losing him and the picks? Have we learned anything in the past couple years that sheds light on what that was all about?

He wasn't going to lose the picks. Ever.
They changed the wording of the CBA from that which was in the MOA, which existed at the time of the offer sheet, to set out what was meant.
His reading was 100% valid.
If the same situation were to happen now, with different wording, there would be a different result, but not then.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Poe969

Why do they need someone young now? They still have some decent t youngish players and they're still a horrible team and they would be a horrible team is you add any player. They're in a rebuild and they're far from being good. They were supposed to be planning for the future, trading one of they're players now shouldn't set then back, it would give them more assets for the future.

Easy for you to say as a non-COL fan. What kind of message does it send to your fans to trade one of your top 3 players for picks? It's a suicidal move. Most people want to keep their jobs. Why on earth would Sakic trade Duchene for picks instead of a key young player? It would set the rebuild and the franchise back by years and no guarantee the picks get you anything as good as Duchene.

C'mon guys. I know we all know picks are valuable but you can't trade one of your top 3 young players for magic beans and sell that to ownership and fans. He'd get crucified. Try to think about it from COL's perspective. This isn't Be an NHL GM mode in a video game. They HAVE to replace Duchene with a key young player or you don't move him.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Too risky IMO. Who's trading a key young player for draft picks? Almost no one. Why would anyone trade a really good young player for picks? I mean we saw it with the Hamilton deal but those types of trades happen almost never. Would we trade Bennett, Tkachuk, Monahan or Gaudreau for picks? No. Would we trade Brodie or Hamilton for picks? No. Try to imagine what team what trade a good young potential franchise player for picks? Pretty hard to imagine isn't it? Players are typically traded for picks solely because they are cap dumps and good young potential franchise players are often cheaper and rarely traded as cap dumps.

They HAVE to get the right piece back in the actual Duchene deal. You cannot bank on trading picks for young players. You can trade picks for veterans but that's not the type of player they need back.

They need a Johansen for Jones type deal basically. A swap of two good young players.

But Duchene is 26 and the team finished last by a large margin last season.

So if the Flames had finish dead last, 21 points behind the next best team, and they traded Hamilton or Brodie (Same age range) for picks? Yeah I would be totally fine since the team isn't 1 trade away, but starting a completely new rebuild.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Easy for you to say as a non-COL fan. What kind of message does it send to your fans to trade one of your top 3 players for picks? It's a suicidal move. Most people want to keep their jobs. Why on earth would Sakic trade Duchene for picks instead of a key young player? It would set the rebuild and the franchise back by years and no guarantee the picks get you anything as good as Duchene.

C'mon guys. I know we all know picks are valuable but you can't trade one of your top 3 young players for magic beans and sell that to ownership and fans. He'd get crucified. Try to think about it from COL's perspective. This isn't Be an NHL GM mode in a video game. They HAVE to replace Duchene with a key young player or you don't move him.

21 points behind the next worst team. Literally one of the worst NHL seasons ever.

What hope are you selling right now? This isn't a team that is anywhere near the playoffs. They should have trade McKinnon and Duchene at the draft for top 3 picks (If possible), drafted a core of young guys and sold that to the fans that they have a new wave of youngsters. Instead I guess they did...nothing?

[dustygoon]

Mackenzie said again on his podcast that dubas was indeed courted to be head of hockey ops. Sakic is lame duck now. Other GMs know he is desperate to make a deal or at least should be.

[Cgycowboy]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

21 points behind the next worst team. Literally one of the worst NHL seasons ever.

What hope are you selling right now? This isn't a team that is anywhere near the playoffs. They should have trade McKinnon and Duchene at the draft for top 3 picks (If possible), drafted a core of young guys and sold that to the fans that they have a new wave of youngsters. Instead I guess they did...nothing?

Who says they won't do this in a year or two when there is proof of a much stronger draft. Also it's tough to do as the buyers will typically be lower in the draft order so it's hard to swallow a trade just for picks.

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[Strange Brew]

So would the Islanders trade the picks they received from Calgary plus their first next year for Duchene?

It's not a guarantee IMO.

[Cgycowboy]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

So would the Islanders trade the picks they received from Calgary plus their first next year for Duchene?

It's not a guarantee IMO.

Doubt it . As mentioned earlier in think Colorado needs a young top prospect now. Similar to Drouin for sergachev

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[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Cgycowboy

Doubt it . As mentioned earlier in think Colorado needs a young top prospect now. Similar to Drouin for sergachev

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Wasn't really thinking about what Colorado wanted, but what Islanders prepared to give up.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Cgycowboy

Doubt it . As mentioned earlier in think Colorado needs a young top prospect now. Similar to Drouin for sergachev

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And the difference here is age - no one is giving up a Sergachev type asset for a 26 year old Duchene with 2 years left on his deal.

Hamonic for Duchene would've been the closest comparable, but apparently that wasn't a starter for Sakic.

[Insufficient Funds]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Too risky IMO. Who's trading a key young player for draft picks? Almost no one. Why would anyone trade a really good young player for picks? I mean we saw it with the Hamilton deal but those types of trades happen almost never. Would we trade Bennett, Tkachuk, Monahan or Gaudreau for picks? No. Would we trade Brodie or Hamilton for picks? No. Try to imagine what team what trade a good young potential franchise player for picks? Pretty hard to imagine isn't it? Players are typically traded for picks solely because they are cap dumps and good young potential franchise players are often cheaper and rarely traded as cap dumps.

They HAVE to get the right piece back in the actual Duchene deal. You cannot bank on trading picks for young players. You can trade picks for veterans but that's not the type of player they need back.

They need a Johansen for Jones type deal basically. A swap of two good young players.

No one said it would be easy. If it were easy it would already be done. You're right, these young players for picks deals rarely happen. Hamilton and to a lesser extent Hamonic are front of mind to Flames fans like me. So it's doesn't seem impossible. Of course the Flames wouldn't trade any of those players at this point. These teams are pretty close to opposite ends of the spectrum right now. If the Flames had the season that the Avs just had we may very well be considering equally drastic moves.

COL insisting on the returning asset being younger makes it tougher. One deal I keep thinking of is a Dushene for Trouba deal. JETS have said they want a D man returning though. So maybe the deal needs to be bigger than just a one for one?

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Cgycowboy

Who says they won't do this in a year or two when there is proof of a much stronger draft. Also it's tough to do as the buyers will typically be lower in the draft order so it's hard to swallow a trade just for picks.

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So they will sit in no man lands for another year or 2, then start the rebuild? And this is selling hope to the fans or a good decision how?

[Cgycowboy]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

And the difference here is age - no one is giving up a Sergachev type asset for a 26 year old Duchene with 2 years left on his deal.

Hamonic for Duchene would've been the closest comparable, but apparently that wasn't a starter for Sakic.

I disagree, a team in win now mode could use duchene in his prime right now in exchange for a top prospect that isn't ready for that role. Canadiens trading for drouin is similar.

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[Cgycowboy]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

So they will sit in no man lands for another year or 2, then start the rebuild? And this is selling hope to the fans or a good decision how?

You can ask sakic he's the one that didn't pull the trigger on a home run hamonic deal If the rumor was right. But yes I would wait another year If this year is less deep than next year. Wait a year and tank for McDavid or do it now for Nolan Patrick. (Just an example)

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[SebC]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

They HAVE to replace Duchene with a key young player or you don't move him.

The clock's ticking. If they hold on to him for two years, they get nothing. If nobody offers a good young player, it is still better to move him than not move him.

[JFK]

Sakic must have pooped a brick when Marcus Johansson was traded to the Devils for a measly 2nd and 3rd round pick.

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

He wasn't going to lose the picks. Ever.
They changed the wording of the CBA from that which was in the MOA, which existed at the time of the offer sheet, to set out what was meant.
His reading was 100% valid.
If the same situation were to happen now, with different wording, there would be a different result, but not then.

This,

It was a pretty smart move, but then the NHL said no it wouldn't work and changed the wording. Everyone said shouldn't you check the ruling first, but that isn't how loopholes work. The worst that could have been done is the NHL invalidate the deal if it was done before they clarified their position

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

But Duchene is 26 and the team finished last by a large margin last season.

So if the Flames had finish dead last, 21 points behind the next best team, and they traded Hamilton or Brodie (Same age range) for picks? Yeah I would be totally fine since the team isn't 1 trade away, but starting a completely new rebuild.

Hamilton just turned 24. Plus these guys are both defence which has to be evaluated differently than forwards.

But you make a good point in that Duchene has been around and it's not like he's a 40 goal or 90 point guy. He's been in the league for 8 years, scored 30 goals once and 70 points once.

Maybe trading for picks won't appease the fan base, but keeping him is probably worse. Really he's a lot like Toylor Hall, but Colorado problem is that they didn't win McDavid in any lottery.

From my vantage point they have a lot of rot to get out of town there. But I'm not sure they can ship it all out and leave McKinnon to fend for himself. They just protected Blake Come a in the expansion draft which tells you how awful their depth is. So there is a massive amount of work required there to get a respectable team back in place.

[Vinny01]

Here is a roster player and prospect offer I would do from the Flames perspective

Frolik (for cap purposes)
Kylington
Gillies
Shinkaruk
For
Duchene

The Flames give up a good roster forward with 3 years left on his deal at a good cap hit. Colorado could keep him in their top 6 or move him for a couple of 2nd rounders.

Kylington is a high ceiling D prospect with 2 years pro experience. Top 5 overall prospect in the Flames pool.

Gillies helps ease the loss of Pickard and could be the backup next year or the year after.

Shinkaruk is a winger that would probably crack the Avs lineup. Boom bust style of player.

The Avs would get a winger, goalie, and D prospect that are all closeish to making the league. They also get a very serviceable winger signed at a decent deal for 3 years.

The Flames dip into their deep system again and thanks to Parsons/Rittich,, Valimaki/Fox/Andersen, and Poirier/Klimchuk/Jankowski they can afford to move these pieces to get a top line forward.