de Grood to be transferred to hospital for assessment

[jayswin]

nm

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by DownInFlames

The thread about this on /r/calgary is absolutely bonkers. They refuse to accept anything except that he needs to be locked up for life. They think they know better than the doctors who've worked with him for years. They bloviate about how the justice system is broken, but when called on to do something to change it they respond, "Why should I?"

I can accept that this is a horrible tragedy and it sucks that there is no justice for the victims, but the lack of reasoned arguments is appalling.

Yes, that's about what you'd expect from there as it really represents society more so than most places on the internet. George Carlin - Think of how stupid the average person is and then realize half of them are stupider than that.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Trust the experts of course, but look at people's reaction to this. It shouldn't factor in, but it will.

Human instinct will be tough for people to suppress, this man killed 5 people.

Tough one. Logic and emotion won't coexist with this case.

But I was saying it won't factor into the treatment and subsequent release, and it won't. If you're saying people will be wary and upset, then yes of course I agree with you.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Yes, that's about what you'd expect from there as it really represents society more so than most places on the internet. George Carlin - Think of how stupid the average person is and then realize half of them are stupider than that.

Not to get all political, but Reddit, including /r/Calgary represents a very liberal slanted version of society. And they still want him locked up forever. IMO, it is an understandable response (same as here), and given the slant of the forum, it speaks volumes as to how emotional an event this crime was for the city.

[Corral]

The brutality of his killings and the fact he needs meds to be stable should be enough to keep him institutionalized for life.

And for those who are asserting societal interests and trust the experts - well I will actually believe you mean that if you can say that to the faces of the victims families. This is a punch in the gut to them and they have my deepest sympathies.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Corral

The brutality of his killings and the fact he needs meds to be stable should be enough to keep him institutionalized for life.

And for those who are asserting societal interests and trust the experts - well I will actually believe you mean that if you can say that to the faces of the victims families. This is a punch in the gut to them and they have my deepest sympathies.

Keeping someone locked up for life for something he had no control over is not justice. Especially when his disease can be treated with medication. He can be rehabilitated and this what our justice system strives for when possible. We are not a barbaric society that throws away the key because people want to exact revenge for what he did.

Schizophrenia is not something you choose to have, it chooses you. It's a horrible disease that affects countless people all over the world. In this case it sadly wasn't diagnosed in time.

Institutionalizing DeGroot for life isn't going to bring back the lives of those he killed, nor is it going to bring peace to the families.

My sympathy goes to both families.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by AnonymousStranger

What's to stop someone with a strong will and intent to murder someone from studying up on the symptoms of schizophrenia and tricking the doctors into letting them out into society, 5 years after murdering someone?

https://globalnews.ca/news/5800460/s...ne-skow-death/

It's not like it hasn't been tried.

Psychologist Leslie Block examined Koshwal at the request of the defence. He determined Koshwal’s mental conditions have rendered him incapable of appreciating his actions. He shows signs of paranoia and delusions.

In the end, the judge decided the not criminally responsible argument was not a proper argument, throwing it out.

Even in the case where Koshwal turned himself in for the murder of his wife and was convinced someone to testify he had mental illness he still was convicted of murder.

So you risk that.

But even if you convince the doctors that you have schizophrenia, and the judge accepts that you're not criminally responsible, it's not like you get away with it.

First off, de Grood isn't being let back into society after 5 years, he gets unsupervised trips at the discretion of his doctors. It took Li a decade to get his absolute discharge.

Second, what do you think is happening where they are? Maximum security mental health facilities have to be nearest the most hellish place in Canada. Anyone who engages with you is either mentally ill or thinks you are, more importantly the medication they give you will seriously mess with you (probably moreso if you aren't actually schizophrenic).

And then finally, even if you do successfully get absolutely discharged (which is no guarantee), you're a pariah. Look at this thread for examples. No one will want to interact with you, you're not getting any good job, you've just wasted the best year of your life living in a mental health facility, and if you're lucky a group home, for a decade+. Congrats on that.

There's probably a lot better ways to try and get away with murder. The first advice I would recommend someone is just not to murder, but failing that, why not just try to get away with it? Blame it on self-defense? "Accidentally" run them over drunk? Plan an escape to a country that won't extradite you?

And when all else fails, remember that Steven Kummerfield was paroled four years after he killed someone because she was a minority sex worker.

[Mr.Coffee]

This debate has been going on with CP for awhile.

At the end of the day, it can be summed up like this:

Do you believe our justice system is for rehabilitation?

Do you believe our justice system is for punishment/ deterrence?

The end.

[Corral]

Originally Posted by Dion

Keeping someone locked up for life for something he had no control over is not justice. Especially when his disease can be treated with medication. He can be rehabilitated and this what our justice system strives for when possible. We are not a barbaric society that throws away the key because people want to exact revenge for what he did.

Schizophrenia is not something you choose to have, it chooses you. It's a horrible disease that affects countless people all over the world. In this case it sadly wasn't diagnosed in time.

Institutionalizing DeGroot for life isn't going to bring back the lives of those he killed, nor is it going to bring peace to the families.

My sympathy goes to both families.

Like I said. If you could say this to the faces of the victims families then I would believe that you mean this.

No parent should have to face the tragedy of outliving their child. Never mind it happens because of such a brutal act.

[Ozy_Flame]

I can't believe I actually agree with Dion on something

[WhiteTiger]

This (and some other NCR case debates) are a tough one for me and where I stand on it. I think a conversation about it on Reddit has actually helped me clarify my thoughts/position a bit.

Person 1

Maybe he's safe, maybe he's not. Either way i would not knowingly put myself in the same room as him at any public or private space.

Person 2

Because you are afraid of him, or because he should be afraid of what your reaction to him would be?

Person 1

Because I am respecting his legally given rights but not taking any risks with the personal safety of myself or my family. He may have taken his medication, he may not have. That's up to him and the legal system. But leaving a room i know he is in is a measure i can take that will make sure I wont be there IF he has one of the mentioned relapses.

I would have no interest in 'vigilante justice' on him myself. That's not me and not my thing. But I frequently encounter the medication problem here, with folks needing to take medication, and so they do, and they feel better, so stop taking the meds, and relapse, hopefully, luckily getting 'caught' before they relapse too far enough.

I don't think I'd want to knowingly be in the same room/immediate area as him, just as a matter of personal safety.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Dion

Institutionalizing DeGroot for life isn't going to bring back the lives of those he killed, nor is it going to bring peace to the families.

They will never have total peace, ever, but knowing the person who killed their loved one is locked up forever to never kill again is far more bearable, freedom is a total kick in the nuts, sleepiness nights with nightmares after nightmares.

I have to say, Regardless of NCR or not if someone killed my kid in cold blood and got out 5 years later I would be dreaming of a way to make him disappear forever

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

They will never have total peace, ever, but knowing the person who killed their loved one is locked up forever to never kill again is far more bearable, freedom is a total kick in the nuts, sleepiness nights with nightmares after nightmares.

I have to say, Regardless of NCR or not if someone killed my kid in cold blood and got out 5 years later I would be dreaming of a way to make him disappear forever

Which is completely understandable and exactly how I'd be feeling in their position as well. My only point in this thread is that a true justice system can't operate on the will of victims or the desires for justice from the general population for that matter.

I mean a lot of countries do still operate that way and they're generally third world countries.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Corral

Like I said. If you could say this to the faces of the victims families then I would believe that you mean this.

No parent should have to face the tragedy of outliving their child. Never mind it happens because of such a brutal act.

We don’t have victims decide punishments or treatment for this very reason. Emotion should not be the driving factor in law making.

[bigtmac19]

I'm curious what information there is regarding what behaviours he was exhibiting in the months before his break. Do we actually know? Were there any obvious signs? I can only imagine that schizophrenia must manifest in so many different ways. If I was his family, it would haunt me forever that I missed signs and could have gotten him help before this happened.

[GordonBlue]

anyone in the mental health field? there has to be a pretty good percentage of people who feel they are "better" and feel they no longer need their medication.

heck. I've seen it myself, although not with a schizophrenic.

that would be my concern, that if/when he decided to stop medicating, he'll do significant harm.

I don't know. I understand the path he's on by the professionals. but emotionally, my sense of justice isn't satisfied for what he did.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

anyone in the mental health field? there has to be a pretty good percentage of people who feel they are "better" and feel they no longer need their medication.

heck. I've seen it myself, although not with a schizophrenic.

that would be my concern, that if/when he decided to stop medicating, he'll do significant harm.

I don't know. I understand the path he's on by the professionals. but emotionally, my sense of justice isn't satisfied for what he did.

Have you seen it when the patient in question committed a violent act when they weren’t on medication? I have to believe that’s more of a deterrent than any restriction that could be placed on him.

[Makarov]

It costs ~$250,000 per patient per year to keep someone in a forensic mental health facility. For a young person like Mr. de Grood, placed in a facility at age ~22, who can be expected to live to ~82 years old, you would be looking at a conservative estimate of $15,000,000 as the cost to keep him in a forensic mental health facility for the rest of his life. Those are only direct costs which ignore the loss of any contributions to society (including paying income tax) if he were successfully treated and eventually discharged.

Just food for thought.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Have you seen it when the patient in question committed a violent act when they weren’t on medication? I have to believe that’s more of a deterrent than any restriction that could be placed on him.

There is a wierd feedback loop at least for depression meds where you convince yourself that you are fine because you feel fine and the side affects from the meds seem not to outweigh the risk because you currently feel perfectly normal despite the fact in your rational brain you know that ceasing to take these meds will result in depression. But this idea that somehow you are now cured is very persuasive.

I don’t know if it’s similar to schizophrenia or not but saying that the consequence will ensure compliance is not correct.

In the Edmonton Journal article they state that Voluntary Compliance for medication taking is not the most effective method of ensuring compliance.

For me the line on the NCR cases is that they should have mandatory supervised medication consumption for the rest of their life. I think that would be a reasonable balance between personal liberty and public safety

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

This is brutal, just another piece of evidence that our country is descending into a backwards world of moral decay and corruption.

Bizarro take alert