The true cost of renovations

[Calgary14]

I recently watched an episode of Property Brothers on HGTV. They helped a young couple renovate, list and sell their single detached home.

Like many other renovation shows, most of the actual work wasn't shown - and there was a lot of it. The downstairs had termites in the walls, electrical that needed rewiring, part of the foundation needed to be redone. And something Ive never seen before - they even had a raccoon living within one of the walls. It was so bad the couple was actually embarrassed.

After all the work was done the total cost was $25k. This included a basement reno (partial), and some major foundation work.

The cost of $25k seemed almost comical. I'm no expert on the cost of renovations but I know people who paid $40k to have their basement finished - small, basic and nothing fancy at all. These jobs were minor in comparison to what this couple had one to their home.

My question is how out to lunch are the costs quoted on these shows? They make it seem like everything can be done fast, easily and on the cheap - when in reality I think its quite the opposite. Ironically this was under the 'reality tv' category.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Calgary14

I recently watched an episode of Property Brothers on HGTV. They helped a young couple renovate, list and sell their single detached home.

Like many other renovation shows, most of the actual work wasn't shown - and there was a lot of it. The downstairs had termites in the walls, electrical that needed rewiring, part of the foundation needed to be redone. And something Ive never seen before - they even had a raccoon living within one of the walls. It was so bad the couple was actually embarrassed.

After all the work was done the total cost was $25k. This included a basement reno (partial), and some major foundation work.

The cost of $25k seemed almost comical. I'm no expert on the cost of renovations but I know people who paid $40k to have their basement finished - small, basic and nothing fancy at all. These jobs were minor in comparison to what this couple had one to their home.

My question is how out to lunch are the costs quoted on these shows? They make it seem like everything can be done fast, easily and on the cheap - when in reality I think its quite the opposite. Ironically this was under the 'reality tv' category.

As a decorator, a lot of contractors will rip you off, especially when they know you don't know.

Usually, you are supposed to charge twice what the cost of the materials is, half is parts, half is labour. So if a room's materials cost $5000, the job should be $10000 total.

That's the rules that they follow on the shows.

However, they charge lots for anything they can get away with. For example. Crown moulding, the best stuff costs about $1.50 for contractors per foot $3.50 for Rona/Home Depot. So, say you have a 10 X 10 foot room, you'll have 40 linear feet total, so total cost is $60 give or take a couple bucks. However, most contractors would charge around $1000 for that to install. It is a bit of a pain in the butt, but I've put it in dozens of times without any prior knowledge of what I'm doing and it's not much more difficult than putting baseboards on.

That's just one example, but they'll literally try anything to gouge you.

[4X4]

^ As a decorator? Does picking out curtains mean you know anything about construction? Operating a brad nailer notwithstanding.

I don't know how you could have read the OP without agreeing that $25,000 is an insanely low price for the work described.

These DIY shows are just brutal. I just don't even want to start. Please, people, don't believe everything you see on TV. And if you find a contractor that's willing to do it for 1/3 of the price that all the other ones quoted you, have fun with that. I look forward to the thread asking why there's water leaking into your fireplace or something.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by 4X4

^ As a decorator? Does picking out curtains mean you know anything about construction? Operating a brad nailer notwithstanding.

I don't know how you could have read the OP without agreeing that $25,000 is an insanely low price for the work described.

These DIY shows are just brutal. I just don't even want to start. Please, people, don't believe everything you see on TV. And if you find a contractor that's willing to do it for 1/3 of the price that all the other ones quoted you, have fun with that. I look forward to the thread asking why there's water leaking into your fireplace or something.

I am not sure the extent of the damage/work done in that show. I do know that most shows do cover a part of the cost. It does seem like that should've cost more like $35K, but a lot of the people I know that work in the industry would've probably charged $60+

I, or my father who used to be a contractor, know a bunch of people in the industry and it's usually how many corners can we cut and gouge at the same time. The house I'm currently working on, I got quoted nearly double the cost of what it should cost to do the work I'm doing by 4 different people (it's a lot of basic stuff) if I was not someone they knew. Yet they chopped nearly all of the excess BS if they were doing it for me.

The entire industry is mostly a joke.

[4X4]

Sorry, man. I think you don't understand construction contract work. The cost of crown moulding can be a buck a foot, or it can be 20. That doesn't really matter too much when you're looking at whether it's being installed around the perimeter of a gymnasium, or into an early 1900s house with 12 different rooms. Linear feet is not always the way to measure.

Tools aren't free, and neither is skill. For that matter, skill isn't cheap.

I'm not trying to say that there are no con artists in the contracting business. I'm just saying that your insinuation that many or most contractors are way over charging is BS. I bet I could walk into the house you're finishing (are you clear on what that word means), and tell you that an amateur did it, as opposed to one finished by an actual carpenter. Same goes for a basement framed by some guy that went to a Home Depot DIY Saturday, or a taped and mudded rumpus room.

It's all fine, if you, the homeowner is ok with an amateur job. I've been known to paint my own vehicles, and I feel no shame. It's just a matter of whether you want it done properly, or if 'good enough' is good enough. I wonder how good an electrical job needs to be to be good enough.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Sorry, man. I think you don't understand construction contract work. The cost of crown moulding can be a buck a foot, or it can be 20. That doesn't really matter too much when you're looking at whether it's being installed around the perimeter of a gymnasium, or into an early 1900s house with 12 different rooms. Linear feet is not always the way to measure.

Tools aren't free, and neither is skill. For that matter, skill isn't cheap.

I am kind of aware of that considering it was my father's profession for over 25 years and mine for almost 8

I'm not trying to say that there are no con artists in the contracting business. I'm just saying that your insinuation that many or most contractors are way over charging is BS. I bet I could walk into the house you're finishing (are you clear on what that word means), and tell you that an amateur did it, as opposed to one finished by an actual carpenter. Same goes for a basement framed by some guy that went to a Home Depot DIY Saturday, or a taped and mudded rumpus room.

I am working with my father, who was instructing me on the correct procedures on how to do things that I hadn't prior, like landscaping with proper drainage, or plumbing etc, and him being a pro at it with decades of experience, and working with me, I'd assume that it would be considered pro work, not amateur hour. Also, when you're getting "quoted" a price and the guys quoting it are laughing at what they are charging, that tells me it's a little ridiculous. The example I shared with the moulding was for a square room with 12 total cuts (all ends) (it was actually a 13 X 20 room with 9 ft ceilings and was quoted $25 a foot to install without materials. )

It's all fine, if you, the homeowner is ok with an amateur job. I've been known to paint my own vehicles, and I feel no shame. It's just a matter of whether you want it done properly, or if 'good enough' is good enough. I wonder how good an electrical job needs to be to be good enough.

Yep, and electrical work is the only one that I'd personally pay for, and even then I'd assist with running the cable. I'm not saying that everyone is a crook and ripping people off, it's just unfortunately more common than not in my experience. Some times it's a few hundred bucks, sometimes it's a lot more. There are great guys that do quality work and charge appropriately. Those are the types that I try to suggest to clients if they ask for it.

It's a frustrating industry at times because there are no standards like in other industries. I believe that you should go to "builder's school" and have to actually pass before being able to begin working, just like a normal degree, instead of "you have hands, here's a tool get to work"

It would also help to get rid of the "bad" that is prevalent.

The main reason why I don't do contracting myself, and I could, is that I find it boring and monotonous, and I'd rather do anything else. At least the decorating has challenges and is fun.

[calgarywinning]

Aside from the current conversation, the DIY or home rescue or let's just do one room shows are totally distorted. The true terms of the contract are not disclosed and many of the events are for "entertainment" purposes only. While they do collect the amount from the homeowners, the agreement is usually to match the funds. The CIBC show with Scott Mcwhatever, seems to be fairly bang on.

Anyways, if you have questions about rates you need only get a builders cost book from Evelin Demille books (if she is still in business) and calculate your square footage to see what is a good rate for the changes you want to make. Also, being able to understand the procedure and interview the people you are hiring is the homeowners responsibility. Just making a decision to renovate and spending your money is not ensuring an outcome. The homeowner no matter a renovation, new build or buy is always responsible to look after their own best interest.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I am kind of aware of that considering it was my father's profession for over 25 years and mine for almost 8

I am working with my father, who was instructing me on the correct procedures on how to do things that I hadn't prior, like landscaping with proper drainage, or plumbing etc, and him being a pro at it with decades of experience, and working with me, I'd assume that it would be considered pro work, not amateur hour. Also, when you're getting "quoted" a price and the guys quoting it are laughing at what they are charging, that tells me it's a little ridiculous. The example I shared with the moulding was for a square room with 12 total cuts (all ends) (it was actually a 13 X 20 room with 9 ft ceilings and was quoted $25 a foot to install without materials. )

Yep, and electrical work is the only one that I'd personally pay for, and even then I'd assist with running the cable. I'm not saying that everyone is a crook and ripping people off, it's just unfortunately more common than not in my experience. Some times it's a few hundred bucks, sometimes it's a lot more. There are great guys that do quality work and charge appropriately. Those are the types that I try to suggest to clients if they ask for it.

It's a frustrating industry at times because there are no standards like in other industries. I believe that you should go to "builder's school" and have to actually pass before being able to begin working, just like a normal degree, instead of "you have hands, here's a tool get to work"

It would also help to get rid of the "bad" that is prevalent.

The main reason why I don't do contracting myself, and I could, is that I find it boring and monotonous, and I'd rather do anything else. At least the decorating has challenges and is fun.

What's stopping you from getting multiple quotes and references, and building strong relationships with trades and suppliers?

If you got every single guy in the city who does crown to quote your crown moulding job you'd have a pretty extreme range, all with a variety of factors behind those quotes. Maybe he didn't want the small job unless it was going to be pay well to be worth his time. There's got to be a minimum charge just for taking on a job. Projects require maintenance aside of the actual labour. Travel across town, picking up materials, site meetings, phone calls, billing, accounting, and disruption to other active jobs to fit your job in. A high maintenance client can get your quote creeping up too. Then there's a need to recoup some value from each job to cover large capital investment in a vehicle and tools, etc.

Price isn't always everything anyways. Service, timing and quality workmanship/product is. Which is what makes long relationships most important so you can provide clients with some amount of assurance.

[4X4]

Well, I'm sure that the doctors and lawyers that read this site will be laughing at us arguing over whether construction contractors or decorators have more skill, but I think it's hilarious that you think that matching carpets to drapes (lol) and hanging a picture of the Eiffel Tower on the wall is more challenging or noteworthy than framing, plumbing, ventilating, electrifying, sealing, and finishing a livable space.

Hanging fuzzy dice on a mirror doesn't change whether it's a Porsche, Pontiac, or Pinto.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Most of those shows are filmed in the GTA - I've never pulled quotes out there but I'm under the impression they aren't paying the triple the materials cost(or more) that contractors are after here. Supply exceeds demand out there and reasonable talent can be had for reasonable dollars.

That said, $25K seems absurdly low. Once in a while Holmes will make a one liner about what the renos he did would have cost.

[Nyah]

Over the last year, we have completely gutted our basement and done the following things:

- not only did we take out the walls, floors and ceilings, we had to strip all the electrical that was ran in the basement because they didn't do anything correctly on the original development
- we had a leak in the foundation, so that had to be fixed
- had the furnace & hot water tank moved about a meter from where it was (Edit: we also replaced those w/ high efficiency stuff)
- had the water main moved (which was surprisingly easy & cheap)
- had a professional plan drawn up by a friend for free for permits
- two friends who were electricians came in & ran new electrical (to code)
- framed, drywalled, mud & taped, sanded
- painted
- new bathroom installed

A lot of these things were done by friends or friends of friends, and we're probably right around $25,000, and that's not including carpet, doors or trim. The argument that the cost should be the same as parts isn't really accurate in my mind either. For example: the guy who mudded/taped/sanded our whole basement spent about $400-$500 on supplies, but it took him about a week to do the work because of the layers & drying process. Same with electrical, the supplies aren't that cheap, but they're not ridiculously priced either. It's the time it takes to run everything.

Overall, I think that when everything is finished and the basement is done (fingers are crossed for 3 weeks), we'll be around $30,000. And we did a lot of it ourselves.

[V]

I ended up gutting and rebuilding my ensuite bathroom because I got 5 quotes and they were all +/- $10,000. It may have taken me a while, and it's definitely not professional quality, but in the end I spent $2,500.

Labour should not cost 4x material. Labour costs in this province are insane.

[jammies]

Everybody thinks everyone else's job is easy and shouldn't pay much.

"I sit at a desk all day surfing CP and 'managing' people, and that's worth $50 an hour! Why should some guy who has spent 20 years learning and practicing to properly cut, measure, fit and finish woodwork get paid the same? HE CAN'T SURF CP LIKE MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!"

Any moron can cook a meal, but if you want something really good, you need either a lot of practice, a lot of training, or both - like a chef. The same applies to manual trades - sure, anyone *can* do it, but if you want anything other than the simplest things done correctly and in a reasonable amount of time, get a professional and be prepared to pay.

PS: Oh yah, and we all know V is a cheap bastage. Just ask him!

[V]

Shoot, I'd be thrilled if they charged me $100/hr. $7500 in labour for an ensuite is hard to swallow. Even if someone wasn't quite as cheap as me.

And I fully realize that I shouldn't be complaining about labour prices, because mine are higher than they would be in any other province. That's not going to stop me!

[sun]

Didn't read past post #2, but crown is at least 3.4x more difficult to install vs base.

[The Yen Man]

I've always assumed the prices they announce on these shows were the cost of materials, and that the labour was "free" since they're doing it for a TV show.

[JMN]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

I've always assumed the prices they announce on these shows were the cost of materials, and that the labour was "free" since they're doing it for a TV show.

Probably depends on the show but on Mike Holmes, I do recall him saying that the cost of his crew wasn't included in the total.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by JMN

Probably depends on the show but on Mike Holmes, I do recall him saying that the cost of his crew wasn't included in the total.

Yeah, on his most recent show he will scroll a list of expenses (Plumber $X, Excavating $X, Landscaping $X, etc) and then, after giving the grand total, says something like, "And that doesn't include us" which I believe means the labour of his crew.

[squiggs96]

I know a friend of a friend who was on Love It or List Vancouver. They paid $80,000 for the renovation, which was the cost of the materials. The $80,000 in labour was included for being on the show. At the end of the show they make you film both endings, and you don't know which one will be shown until it airs. I have been able to find a couple of the houses that are on the show, and both have said they were going to list it. Neither one actually hit the market, and both owners are still in the houses.

The math on these shows makes me laugh, especially the flip shows. They will say they need to sell the house before the next mortgage payment because the entire cost of the mortgage payment will eat away their profit. Some of it will, being the interest portion, but the principal portion will come back to you when you sell. I get that it's a TV show, but some basic math concepts should be taught to the producers.

[darklord700]

I used to like Love it or List it but once I learned that they film two endings and most owners were just on board for the cheap reno, I lost interest in it.