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Old 09-11-2020, 03:22 PM   #4961
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with respect if they hadnt given it to Polk High they would have sold it to some smaller countries army for 733k which then in theory could have been spent on something, nothing is free
Fair enough. That definitely could have happened in theory.

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Old 09-11-2020, 03:23 PM   #4962
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But that's not what you said. You said if "that" money implying that $733k was spent on an armoured vehicle. There wasn't $733k just kicking around.
"That" money for "that" vehicle came from tax payer money. "That" money should not be spent on redundant military equipment that is then "given" to local law enforcement through a disposition program. Instead "that" money should be given to dedicated to national programs that aid social programs to supplement community services and take the load off of police.

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Columbine ABSOLUTELY changed the face of policing from tactics to training to equipment.
Not when it comes to the militarization of law enforcement. Columbine was a blip on the landscape. Yes, tactics were revised, but the militarization didn't pick up until after DHS was founded. You could possibly make the argument it was the 1033 program under HW Bush, under the guise of combating drug cartels, that opened the door to access to military equipment and training, but it was the Patriot Act and the creation of the Department of Homeland Security that gave departments access to equipment, money, and government support for the rapid and aggressive adoption and use of that equipment. 2002-2010 saw a huge acquisition of hardware and tactics, provided and supported by DHS funding. I was in law enforcement at the time, I got to see it happen.
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Old 09-11-2020, 03:30 PM   #4963
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Robocop came out in 1987 and was a response to US police militarization a decade before Columbine, I think the main thing that has screwed US policing has been a semi permanent state of war the US has been for my whole 60 years in meaning a stream of ex soldiers joining the police who are possibly the least suitable human beings you could ever hire to be policemen, they have been promoted sent up the chain of command, developed procedures and training that mirror their military experiences
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Old 09-11-2020, 03:41 PM   #4964
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Robocop came out in 1987 and was a response to US police militarization a decade before Columbine, I think the main thing that has screwed US policing has been a semi permanent state of war the US has been for my whole 60 years in meaning a stream of ex soldiers joining the police who are possibly the least suitable human beings you could ever hire to be policemen, they have been promoted sent up the chain of command, developed procedures and training that mirror their military experiences
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Old 09-11-2020, 04:35 PM   #4965
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This is the reality we in the US face. Social and municipal services continue to be cut, but police budgets continue to receive funding for "special projects" that lead to further militarization of the force. Its crazy. A municipality I worked for eliminated Animal Control and all calls went to the Police Department. You'll never guess what happened? The incidents of animals getting shot sky rocketed. Why? Because cops aren't prepared for or trained to handle that situation either, but they know how to handle a threat, and that's to put it down with extreme force.

San Diego Unified School District Police got one of these bad boys from the Feds.

Imagine what could have been done for the community if that $733,000 was spent on mental health professionals instead of a piece of military hardware for a school district!!! The warrior mentality continues to spread because we equip them and threat them like they are military. Defund this #### and give the money to social services. Our communities will be much better off for it and kids with autism won't be shot as a result.
Militarization of police has been an issue for a long time.

The Atlantic wrote an article on this in 2011, during the Obama tenure. Of course we all know how much Obama did to prevent what was at that point a problem 10 years in the making. He just helped it turn into a problem now 20 years in the making.

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Undoubtedly, American police departments have substantially increased their use of military-grade equipment and weaponry to perform their counterterrorism duties, adopting everything from body armor to, in some cases, attack helicopters. The logic behind this is understandable. If superior, military-grade equipment helps the police catch more criminals and avert, or at least reduce, the threat of a domestic terror attack, then we ought deem it an instance of positive sharing of technology — right? Not necessarily. Indeed, experts in the legal community have raised serious concerns that allowing civilian law enforcement to use military technology runs the risk of blurring the distinction between soldiers and peace officers.

This is especially true in cases where, much to the chagrin of civil liberty advocates, police departments have employed their newly acquired military weaponry not only to combat terrorism but also for everyday patrolling. Before 9/11, the usual heavy weaponry available to a small-town police officer consisted of a standard pump-action shot gun, perhaps a high power rifle, and possibly a surplus M-16, which would usually have been kept in the trunk of the supervising officer's vehicle. Now, police officers routinely walk the beat armed with assault rifles and garbed in black full-battle uniforms. When one of us, Arthur Rizer, returned from active duty in Iraq, he saw a police officer at the Minneapolis airport armed with a M4 carbine assault rifle — the very same rifle Arthur carried during his combat tour in Fallujah.

......

Notwithstanding this concern, however, Americans should remain mindful bringing military-style training to domestic law enforcement has real consequences. When police officers are dressed like soldiers, armed like soldiers, and trained like soldiers, it's not surprising that they are beginning to act like soldiers. And remember: a soldier's main objective is to kill the enemy.
https://www.theatlantic.com/national...police/248047/

Those words ring true today.
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Old 09-11-2020, 05:16 PM   #4966
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Good article, Azure. Obama did nothing to stop this practice. As a Democrat he eas weak with the police and did nothing to piss them off, which I think made them hate him that much more. I think if he had been tougher on them they would have maybe respected him (begrudingly) a little more.
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Old 09-11-2020, 08:01 PM   #4967
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I'm very willing to bet that San Diego mine proof truck cost about two teacher salaries a year to maintain. I assume you have to pay to have them delivered, pay for the new logos and retrofit a few items to lighten the load a bit. That one doesn't look like the ones in the Iraqi desert. Those tires and engines and parts aren't cheap or easy. You probably need a guy who knows how to deal with that stuff to fix it up.
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Old 09-11-2020, 11:40 PM   #4968
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Robocop came out in 1987 and was a response to US police militarization a decade before Columbine, I think the main thing that has screwed US policing has been a semi permanent state of war the US has been for my whole 60 years in meaning a stream of ex soldiers joining the police who are possibly the least suitable human beings you could ever hire to be policemen, they have been promoted sent up the chain of command, developed procedures and training that mirror their military experiences


I would add that they have been at war for their whole entire existence. They were founded based on the populous rising up against their government. With a country as large as the USA the government is afraid how easily the population could overrun them if they really tried to. Yes the government has allnthe fancy tech but they have been fighting determined local populations in every majour conflict in those last 70 plus years and gotten nowhere without other countries help.

The point of only being the last 60 years of policing seeing a large number of ex milatary being concerning is false too. When policing was established which included being slave patrollers you need to go through milatary school. To be a police officer you went through milatary academy. That was so you got trained in a ranked system which is why the police have the ranking system today. Now they are seperate entities but the traning is somewhat still the same and the ranks exist. Originally the police/slave patrols were the military. So it's not just 60 years its 250 years of being milatary induced.

Point 2 would be policing being populated by ex military is a problem but they most likely fear the number of ex military that chooses not to be cops aswell. Theres probably more than enough ex milatary that could organize the population if needed

We saw many ex military going out in support of the protests yelling at the cops and national guard they were not following their oaths.

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Old 09-11-2020, 11:56 PM   #4969
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While I don't disagree with the demilitarization, to be fair, they didn't pay $733k as you said. They got it for free from the DOD's Excess Property Program.

But the sight of it at a school is pretty alarming. The world changed with Columbine and Bank of America no doubt.

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Your pretty out of the loop if you think those event had any effects on policing. It happened about 250 years before that.

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Old 09-12-2020, 12:17 AM   #4970
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I would add that they have been at war for their whole entire existence. They were founded based on the populous rising up against their government. With a country as large as the USA the government is afraid how easily the population could overrun them if they really tried to. Yes the government has allnthe fancy tech but they have been fighting determined local populations in every majour conflict in those last 70 plus years and gotten nowhere without other countries help.

Point 2 would be policing being populated by ex military is a problem but they most likely fear the number of ex military that chooses not to be cops aswell. Theres probably more than enough ex milatary that could organize the population if needed

We saw many ex military going out in support of the protests yelling at the cops and national guard they were not following their oaths.
My issue with vets in the police, even prison guards is not based on their politics so much as just how diametrically opposed the skill set of a soldier is to the skill set of a cop, soldiers are essentially taught to operate unthinkingly as part of a team that meets an objective by the use of escalating force as quickly as possible with almost no regard to the process, a good policeman needs to be very independent and flexible and able to reassess and adjust to a situation rapidly, while a policeman has to meet an objective how he gets to the objective is as important as the objective itself.

Police training in the US is completely dominated by a military perspective as well, it all becomes a feedback loop of increasing violence and inflexibility, most of the shootings we are talking about here are because a civilian didn't do as they were told, now I dont doubt there have been occcasions where the person that got shot for not obeying an order was a bad guy who would have done something bad if they hadnt been shot, but that doesn't make the decision making process in any way ok, for every one guy that was stopped from doing something heinous there are a hundred who wouldn't and are still dead
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Old 09-12-2020, 01:42 AM   #4971
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My issue with vets in the police, even prison guards is not based on their politics so much as just how diametrically opposed the skill set of a soldier is to the skill set of a cop, soldiers are essentially taught to operate unthinkingly as part of a team that meets an objective by the use of escalating force as quickly as possible with almost no regard to the process, a good policeman needs to be very independent and flexible and able to reassess and adjust to a situation rapidly, while a policeman has to meet an objective how he gets to the objective is as important as the objective itself.

Police training in the US is completely dominated by a military perspective as well, it all becomes a feedback loop of increasing violence and inflexibility, most of the shootings we are talking about here are because a civilian didn't do as they were told, now I dont doubt there have been occcasions where the person that got shot for not obeying an order was a bad guy who would have done something bad if they hadnt been shot, but that doesn't make the decision making process in any way ok, for every one guy that was stopped from doing something heinous there are a hundred who wouldn't and are still dead
I know what your saying but the prison guards here in Canada are no ####ing angels and they act the same . You say it's not about politics but it is police, milatary and prison guards are overwhelmingly conservative. The skill set between a cop and soldier is not as dramatic as you think. The police and a soldier in N.A are surprisingly on par whether they are ex military or not. If the ex military was a former seal then they would have the edge but the rest of the teaing is almost equal to milatary patrol of an occuping force. I can tell you from personal experience the mentality and training is the same as that of a military patrollling a area they "liberated " . We are viewed as the enemy they patrol. They are told in their daily briefings in this tone. I know this . I come from nothing but police,milatary and oil tycoons. I'm not the most popular family member at all right now.
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Old 09-12-2020, 03:12 AM   #4972
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Inreresting way ro take a song from arguably bad to good. It really is a good way of doing it.

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Old 09-12-2020, 05:11 AM   #4973
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I don't know if literally any not to crazy Adult can handle an Autistic person as easily as you think when they have a episode. It's not like in the movies or t.v shows where they bear hug them to get them under control.

My wife is a nurse and her specialty is carrying for people with autism. She has clients all over the spectrum. I've seen what she has to deal with at times and I can tell you a regular person nor most police officers have the neccessary tools to deal with people with mental disabilities. Depending on the type of disability to there are other medical conditions at play to alot of the times you need to be aware of to properly manage a situation. She does a wonderful job at it but shes got medical and psychology training to handle it. The police definitely don't have the training required. The way they are trained to deescalate won't work and if somethings already in progress their just going to try to forcibly get the situation under control by trying to get people in hand cuffs. That's not going to work with alot of the specteum and will escalate things quickly.
I'm sorry, this is still ridiculous.

I'm not asking for people to know exactly what to do, or the handle the situation perfectly. Trust me, been there done that, I know exactly what it is when an autistic "kid" has fit. Had to deal with one just two weeks ago, except this kid wasn't 13 but 18 and bigger than me, and as I have exactly zero training for this or use of force in general.

At no point did it cross my mind that maybe I should just try to kill the kid.

Perfect is not the bar. "Do better than literally shoot the kid you're supposed to be helping" is the bar, and I hold to my position that literally any two non-crazy adults would do better.

What you seem to be saying is that it's somehow understandable for "let's shoot the kid" to be a reasonable response to a situation you don't know how to handle, and that to me is insane.

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Becoming a police officer should be a 4 year degree like anything else. You want to weed out the bad apples you do that. I almost guarentee the bad ones most likely aren't going to either pass or complete 4 years of schooling
This we certainly agree on, although this is what we have in Finland and it's not like there's no police brutality here.

Just recently there was a scandal about five police officers beating an arrested man in his cell (at that point already handcuffed and not resisting at all), so badly that he almost died. The only reason this was discovered was because he almost died and needed medical checkup, and in the aftermath only one of the policemen involved was convicted, even though there were five people directly involved and five others stood by to watch the beating go down. (The cell surveillance video of the incident actually turned up, to most people's surprise.)

So it's not like things are perfect here. It's just way better.

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Old 09-12-2020, 05:35 AM   #4974
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I don't know if literally any not to crazy Adult can handle an Autistic person as easily as you think when they have a episode. It's not like in the movies or t.v shows where they bear hug them to get them under control.

My wife is a nurse and her specialty is carrying for people with autism. She has clients all over the spectrum. I've seen what she has to deal with at times and I can tell you a regular person nor most police officers have the neccessary tools to deal with people with mental disabilities. Depending on the type of disability to there are other medical conditions at play to alot of the times you need to be aware of to properly manage a situation. She does a wonderful job at it but shes got medical and psychology training to handle it. The police definitely don't have the training required. The way they are trained to deescalate won't work and if somethings already in progress their just going to try to forcibly get the situation under control by trying to get people in hand cuffs. That's not going to work with alot of the specteum and will escalate things quickly.

Becoming a police officer should be a 4 year degree like anything else. You want to weed out the bad apples you do that. I almost guarentee the bad ones most likely aren't going to either pass or complete 4 years of schooling
Those most likely to get weeded out of the police are the good apples that put their head above the parapet of the cesspool of a culture that is effectively forced by Police Unions that have no interest in eradicating the bad apples. Anyone with the guts to speak up will be hounded by their own Union because they will be labelled a traitor.
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Old 09-12-2020, 08:36 AM   #4975
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Good article, Azure. Obama did nothing to stop this practice. As a Democrat he eas weak with the police and did nothing to piss them off, which I think made them hate him that much more. I think if he had been tougher on them they would have maybe respected him (begrudingly) a little more.
Obama was a cog in the wheel of a system that he couldn't do anything to change.

I think he wanted to make changes, but there is only so much political capital available for any President. At the end of the day he made the choice (if you want to call it that, as I'm not sure it is much of a choice) to continue the war on terror, and part of that included the increased militarization of the police due to DoD programs and other stuff.

This is exactly why it is dangerous to think that either one of the two parties will change anything when both have been instrumental in getting us to this point.
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Old 09-12-2020, 08:50 AM   #4976
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My issue with vets in the police, even prison guards is not based on their politics so much as just how diametrically opposed the skill set of a soldier is to the skill set of a cop, soldiers are essentially taught to operate unthinkingly as part of a team that meets an objective by the use of escalating force as quickly as possible with almost no regard to the process, a good policeman needs to be very independent and flexible and able to reassess and adjust to a situation rapidly, while a policeman has to meet an objective how he gets to the objective is as important as the objective itself.

Police training in the US is completely dominated by a military perspective as well, it all becomes a feedback loop of increasing violence and inflexibility, most of the shootings we are talking about here are because a civilian didn't do as they were told, now I dont doubt there have been occcasions where the person that got shot for not obeying an order was a bad guy who would have done something bad if they hadnt been shot, but that doesn't make the decision making process in any way ok, for every one guy that was stopped from doing something heinous there are a hundred who wouldn't and are still dead
The prison system is broken simply due to the fact that it is for profit. Change that and a lot of things get better.

But when you have for profit prison companies lobbying the government on crime reform, what do we think will happen?

This is a cycle that has continued for many years due to the rotation in and out of government by the two parties, both of which give a ##### about stuff like this.

Bill Clinton was part of this too. But these days everyone thinks ol' Bill is woke, and helping change the system!

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The 1994 federal crime bill that created tough new criminal sentences and incentivized states to build more prisons and pass truth-in-sentencing laws is getting new scrutiny during this 2020 election cycle.

It’s true that the federal government has limited jurisdiction over mass incarceration and that incarceration rates were already high by 1994. But it’s also true that following passage of the federal crime bill, incarceration rates continued to climb for an additional 14 years.
https://www.aclu.org/blog/smart-just...eration-crisis

As for police training, Jocko made a good point about this on a podcast he did. Cops get minimal training before they're sent into the field. Once they're in the field they don't get the ability to go back and improve on their training, nor do they get time off.

Why is that important? First of all limited training means there isn't enough time to actually weed out the crazies. I.E. 6+ months of SEAL training is designed to not only train the candidates, but also figure out which candidates can handle the stress. Second of all, limited training means limited training. When cops are sent out on patrol they are hardly ready to deal with most of the stuff they face. On top of that they can't actually go back and get more training on certain things like the military does, nor is it required. And lastly, because they don't get time off, those cops that deal with more stressful situations are even more likely to run into issues, and often deal with high levels of mental stress.

The shift has been towards more training, equipment and resources for SWAT type cops, and less of everything for the normal beat cop. And time after time the normal beat cop is the one that creates most of the issues.

One other thing that Jocko mentioned was a complete lack of de-escalation training. Zero.

Crazy if you think about it.
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Old 09-12-2020, 09:14 AM   #4977
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I think ex-military has always been common recruiting ground for police forces.

But up to the early 70's the majority of veterans were drafted, and many had combat experience. The pool of veterans were a bunch of normal guys that had experience with life or death situations.

The current crop of veterans are self selected for military service and if they've been in combat, it has been asymmetrical warfare, not army vs army like in WWII or Korea.

Not meaning cops used to be great, more like they are worse now just because of the pool of likely applicants. Then layer on top of that: insufficient training, an us vs them culture and a society drowning in firearms.
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Old 09-12-2020, 02:12 PM   #4978
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This is exactly why it is dangerous to think that either one of the two parties will change anything when both have been instrumental in getting us to this point.
When both parties are right of center in the political spectrum you can't expect significant change. This is why the Democrats have to begin the slow shift left, and that will only begin by re-introducing certain concepts like liberalism and socialism as having greater benefit to society as a whole. When the concept of universal healthcare can be defeated by the simple notion that it is "socialism" and most people don't understand what or how socialism works, then you have to invest in an education program. It is no different that battling terror groups on social media. First thing to do is to own the language and the lexicon, shift the narrative based on the new understanding, and win the hearts and minds through that messaging campaign. Once people have accepted the positive image of the language, then you can introduce initiatives that move towards those ideological positions. Until then, you're fighting an unwinnable battle and the perceptions are locked in.

Also agree with your point on for-profit-prisons. End that and society changes. But with ALEC having so much influence, you're playing against a stacked deck.
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Old 09-12-2020, 06:06 PM   #4979
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I know what your saying but the prison guards here in Canada are no ####ing angels and they act the same . You say it's not about politics but it is police, milatary and prison guards are overwhelmingly conservative. The skill set between a cop and soldier is not as dramatic as you think. The police and a soldier in N.A are surprisingly on par whether they are ex military or not. If the ex military was a former seal then they would have the edge but the rest of the teaing is almost equal to milatary patrol of an occuping force. I can tell you from personal experience the mentality and training is the same as that of a military patrollling a area they "liberated " . We are viewed as the enemy they patrol. They are told in their daily briefings in this tone. I know this . I come from nothing but police,milatary and oil tycoons. I'm not the most popular family member at all right now.
Having spent 14 years working in a jail organising release plans I certainly know full well our corrections facilities leave alot to be desired.

As to your second point, a policeman aught to have a dramatically different skill set from a soldier, I would be the first to admit in N America they dont but that is the problem, I have spent my working life dealing with cops in both the UK and Vancouver and the difference is staggering really, the police in the UK have to be better because they just dont have the equipment or legal back up they have here

The other issue is the problem becomes pervasive into many areas, I'm a youth worker and got sent on de escalation training, sounded good in principle turned out to be a system set up by an ex green beret being used all over N America that focused intirely on choke holds and arm bars, the trainer was dumbfounded when I informed her I would never touch a kid under any circumstances and there was no situation that anything she was teaching me would ever be useful to me and further more I would be fired and sent to jail if ever did use it.

At the end of the week long training we left thinking 'these yanks are crazy!' while I have no doubt they were thinking 'those Canadians are nuts!'
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Old 09-13-2020, 02:35 PM   #4980
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Having spent 14 years working in a jail organising release plans I certainly know full well our corrections facilities leave alot to be desired.



As to your second point, a policeman aught to have a dramatically different skill set from a soldier, I would be the first to admit in N America they dont but that is the problem, I have spent my working life dealing with cops in both the UK and Vancouver and the difference is staggering really, the police in the UK have to be better because they just dont have the equipment or legal back up they have here



The other issue is the problem becomes pervasive into many areas, I'm a youth worker and got sent on de escalation training, sounded good in principle turned out to be a system set up by an ex green beret being used all over N America that focused intirely on choke holds and arm bars, the trainer was dumbfounded when I informed her I would never touch a kid under any circumstances and there was no situation that anything she was teaching me would ever be useful to me and further more I would be fired and sent to jail if ever did use it.



At the end of the week long training we left thinking 'these yanks are crazy!' while I have no doubt they were thinking 'those Canadians are nuts!'
Sometimes a well placed period can help you organize your thoughts.

Apologies. I couldn't resist.

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