Did a Chinese hack kill Canada's greatest tech company?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

the concept of empire changed after the second world war, both the US and USSR engaged in client state empires and Gulf war 2 was definatly an attempt to put a US friendly oil producing client state in the middle east.

I do agree it is tough to compare China's desire to reclaim territory that was for a thousand years part of China and was taken in part by force, as unpleasant as that is for us and the US bombing some country on the other side of the world it had no business messing with into an anarchic state at the cost of a half million dead, destablysing the whole region, and on some level helping to create the anarchy in Syria and the rise of ISIS.

I'm interested to know your thoughts on China's recent actions toward Hong Kong (erosion of democratic rights/freedoms of individual/freedom of press). Approve or disapprove?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I'm interested to know your thoughts on China's recent actions toward Hong Kong (erosion of democratic rights/freedoms of individual/freedom of press). Approve or disapprove?

of course I disapprove, I disapprove of almost everything the Chinese do, I just dont think its any different from what the US have done throughout my life

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Man I hope foreign workers in China are getting danger pay.

My old company used to have a huge presence in both manufacturing and sales into China. All employee travel to China got suspended when the Micheals got taken. Company didn't want to deal with the liability.

If the Micheals weren't a painfully obvious sign foreign companies should be pulling their employees out of China, Hong Kong should have been a giant wake up call. It'll only get worse as Huawei's cell phone business collapses and China looks to retaliate.

[FlameOn]

An interesting article about the old Nortel site the Canadian government inherited after the company shut down. CSIS/DND was slated to move into it but its so dangerously contaminated with Chinese listening devices and spy equipment that it was almost abandoned. Apparently was cleaned up later.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/dnd-ma...bugs-1.1477766

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

of course I disapprove, I disapprove of almost everything the Chinese do, I just dont think its any different from what the US have done throughout my life

Fair enough... seems tough to have to equate each new atrocity from one country with a historic one from another as some sort of equalization method. There's no way US/China are 'equal' in their atrocities over the past say 20 years. You'd have to pick one over the other.

[OldDutch]

While I agree the US is far from perfect, I don’t agree their actions are completely on par with China. First if someone can point to an instance where the US Government has filled buildings full of hackers to steal IP for their private enterprise I am all ears. Imagine the US Army getting caught hacking Spotify to give their IP to Google to use.

Second if this is true, and likely is, I don’t think the US has engaged in genocide in very recent times. Yes they are guilty of what they did to native Americans no doubt and the Japanese, bit that was generations ago. Today right now this is happening in China.

Again US makes me unhappy too. They cheat people on trade deals no doubt. They interfere in other countries no doubt. However I think we need to pick a lane. Neither is perfect but the US is closest geographically and culturally. A China alliance would probably see us sucked dry and thrown away when no longer useful. I doubt a world where China is the sole super power is one that is anywhere better than now. That is all you really need to consider in these times.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Fair enough... seems tough to have to equate each new atrocity from one country with a historic one from another as some sort of equalization method. There's no way US/China are 'equal' in their atrocities over the past say 20 years. You'd have to pick one over the other.

last twenty years that would be hands down the US, in our lifetime only the cultural revolution would exceed the US death toll and that was at least their own people as crappy as it was

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

While I agree the US is far from perfect, I don’t agree their actions are completely on par with China. First if someone can point to an instance where the US Government has filled buildings full of hackers to steal IP for their private enterprise I am all ears. Imagine the US Army getting caught hacking Spotify to give their IP to Google to use.

Second if this is true, and likely is, I don’t think the US has engaged in genocide in very recent times. Yes they are guilty of what they did to native Americans no doubt and the Japanese, bit that was generations ago. Today right now this is happening in China.

Again US makes me unhappy too. They cheat people on trade deals no doubt. They interfere in other countries no doubt. However I think we need to pick a lane. Neither is perfect but the US is closest geographically and culturally. A China alliance would probably see us sucked dry and thrown away when no longer useful. I doubt a world where China is the sole super power is one that is anywhere better than now. That is all you really need to consider in these times.

What do you call Iraq, Vietnam, Honduras, Chile? these wars and right wing these regimes killed millions as a direct result of US intervention, they weren't a century ago, they are still going on now.

[Flamenspiel]

Last 20 years is a cherry pick. The party in power right now in China was responsible for killing 20-45 million people over a period of 30 years or so. These numbers can only be compared to The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany.

On top of that this death toll continues today.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

What do you call Iraq, Vietnam, Honduras, Chile? these wars and right wing these regimes killed millions as a direct result of US intervention, they weren't a century ago, they are still going on now.

Afc, I mean this respectfully. There is a huge difference between interference in another country including providing arms or even invasion, and rounding up every man woman and child in the country and for the purpose of cleansing them one way or another.

Back to what I see in this thread “oh companies have been copying each other forever”. Again huge difference between a company copying a feature off iOS and a nation state supplying hackers to steal IP and give to their companies.

We need to stop saying China and the US are equal in this area. One is distasteful the other is fully criminal. If you want further proof see what happened with Snowden today, distasteful conduct being tried and verdict using law. In China this doesn’t exist. There is no challenge, and if you do you disappear.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

last twenty years that would be hands down the US, in our lifetime only the cultural revolution would exceed the US death toll and that was at least their own people as crappy as it was

Hmm maybe it would be useful to engage in some categorization. Like for example, what if we focused on domestic body count instead of international for the moment? Who kills more of their own citizens, the US or China?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Hmm maybe it would be useful to engage in some categorization. Like for example, what if we focused on domestic body count instead of international for the moment? Who kills more of their own citizens, the US or China?

well that would be China hands down, there is the essential difference, China kills thousands of it own citizens each year where as the US only kills hundreds, but the US manages to cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands every decade with their wars on communism and Islam/arab despots that hate Islam

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

well that would be China hands down, there is the essential difference, China kills thousands of it own citizens each year where as the US only kills hundreds, but the US manages to cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands every decade with their wars on communism and Islam/arab despots that hate Islam

I guess thats what makes it tough to compare the too, they're both guilty of atrocities, but they seem to come from different motivations, are 'executed' differently. I'm not sure its really helpful to excuse one nations' actions due to the fact that another committed it.

I suppose my bias is that regardless of US 'crimes', China seems actively and publicly engaged in cleansing/territory conquering/reconquering efforts that the US is 'smart enough' to have others do, to hide their motivation, to have private/non government enterprise carry out actions, etc.

China could do well to be a little more opaque like the US

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I guess thats what makes it tough to compare the too, they're both guilty of atrocities, but they seem to come from different motivations, are 'executed' differently. I'm not sure its really helpful to excuse one nations' actions due to the fact that another committed it.

I suppose my bias is that regardless of US 'crimes', China seems actively and publicly engaged in cleansing/territory conquering/reconquering efforts that the US is 'smart enough' to have others do, to hide their motivation, to have private/non government enterprise carry out actions, etc.

China could do well to be a little more opaque like the US

I'm not excusing either, I believe the actions of both are reprehensible, I recognise that as a white english speaker the US wont kill me and so I view the US practically as not a threat where as China is a threat but if I was African for instance my view would likely be reversed

[sharkov]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

First if someone can point to an instance where the US Government has filled buildings full of hackers to steal IP for their private enterprise I am all ears. Imagine the US Army getting caught hacking Spotify to give their IP to Google to use.

Has no nobody ever heard of the CIA's Vault 7 before? Every US origin Tech is already compromised