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Old 01-06-2011, 10:06 AM   #61
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I have interest in this issue, as I have a 14 month old little one and had to make decisions to vaccinate him. We did decide to give him almost all of the vaccinations, but did things a little differently. We delayed most shots until he was a several months older, and also split up multiple vaccinations is was suppose to receive at one time. We have decided to wait on the MMR until he is older (probably until he goes to daycare or school).

We decided to do this for two reasons:
1 . We have a good friend who works with autistic children. She said that mostly all parents have a common theme claiming vaccinations changed their children.
2. Every doctor who speaks against vaccinations has their medical license taken away.

I do realize it is in the best interest of the world's population that everyone is protected, but my above 2 points give me an uneasy feeling.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:10 AM   #62
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That's a solid sample size.

You do realize that the swine flu wasn't overhyped, the reason it never got to pandemic levels is because of vaccines.
What?
The W.H.O. declared the swine flu a pandemic, and it was overhyped. Of course some of the W.H.O. members were found to be on the payroll of big phamra business. The swine flu was no more harmful than regular seasonal flu.

Unrelated to your post but most if not all of the studies done to delcare vaccines as safe are funded by pharmaceutical companies, and this is what erodes my trust in the medical establishment, that is the probablilty of conflict of interest.

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Old 01-06-2011, 10:15 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by kdogg View Post
I have interest in this issue, as I have a 14 month old little one and had to make decisions to vaccinate him. We did decide to give him almost all of the vaccinations, but did things a little differently. We delayed most shots until he was a several months older, and also split up multiple vaccinations is was suppose to receive at one time. We have decided to wait on the MMR until he is older (probably until he goes to daycare or school).

We decided to do this for two reasons:
1 . We have a good friend who works with autistic children. She said that mostly all parents have a common theme claiming vaccinations changed their children.
2. Every doctor who speaks against vaccinations has their medical license taken away.

I do realize it is in the best interest of the world's population that everyone is protected, but my above 2 points give me an uneasy feeling.
Good for you for thinking for yourself.
Part of the vaccine-autism link revolves around the amount of doses a child recieves in a short period of time.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:17 AM   #64
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It's also worth noting that vaccines are not 100% effective. You can get vaccinated, but still get the disease. I read that one of the hep vaccines was around 90% effective and that was considered high.
Very true, and as far as I can see no one is denying these facts. It does however demonstrate why it is even more important for everyone (who is medically able) to get these vaccinations in order to provide herd immunity

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It is important that people know how effective it is. It is conceivable that large populations get vaccinated and the false sense of security does more harm than good.
An interesting concept. But is there any data to suggest this?

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The H1N1 program was well underway before we knew how effective it would be. That seemed pretty irresponsible to vaccinate more than just the most prone people.
It was also well underway before we fully understood who would be most susceptible and how serious the complication would be.

We did know however than the vaccine carried extremely low risk of serious complications, therefore it would seem to me to be most prudent to distribute it as widely as possible.

Hopefully the lessons we learned will make the decisions easier for us the next time we face a situation such as this.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:20 AM   #65
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Sometimes I think mikey_the_redneck is a plant designed to pull an opposing side of debate to such an extreme that it makes any debate over issues of science, vaccines etc... so illegitimate and laughable.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:20 AM   #66
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This indicative of the flawed reasoning you are employing.. we were talking about nurses administering the vaccines, not the media. The media does what it does, that doesn't have any relevance to the risks and benefits of vaccinations.

And you put pandemic in quotes to try and make some point, but H1N1 met all the criteria for a pandemic, yet you employ more flawed reasoning by making an appeal to emotion with your "so called" quotes.

It's not a scare tactic to state what is going on.



What's the difference then? How can one be ok but the other not be?



I've read some studies on vitamin D with relation to flu and cold, and they don't say what you are claiming here. This is a bare assertion, substantiate it with some evidence.

While you are at it maybe you can explain how taking vitamin D can generate antibodies for a particular strain of flu.



That you think this kind of fallacious reasoning is in any way meaningful is telling.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:21 AM   #67
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So it was the administration of the program rather than the vaccine itself that is the issue?
A little bit of both. It was that it was administered without the risks being documented and studied. There is risk crossing the street, and that shouldn't stop people from doing it... but I'll still be sure to look both ways before doing so every time (and not just rely on the green light).


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Ironic given:


It seems you are okay in using fear to avoid vaccinations.
Really, so that by saying sometimes being vaccinated is not necessary and that there are risks, it is spreading fear? If that scares anyone, then they need to get on some mood stablizing drugs. I never once stated that vaccines will create disasters or are terrible things. I am just saying that if people are low risk of contracting the disease, then they have a right to avoid the risks associated with taking the vaccine (no matter how low those risks are). How is that scary?


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Again, if you have studies that demonstrate that our current vaccine schedule is ineffective I would be happy to learn more about them.

So far I have yet to see this evidence conclusively produced.
I'll get right on that... right after you provide me with the evidence you have where low risk people not getting vaccinated is causing massive damage to society.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:21 AM   #68
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1 . We have a good friend who works with autistic children. She said that mostly all parents have a common theme claiming vaccinations changed their children.
So you listen to those, but ignore the parents who had vaccinations a claim they didn't change their child.. why? Why listen to one but not the other?

Or why ignore the many studies done with actual data?

You (and the other parents) are committing a very basic error in reasoning in thinking correlation equals causation.

Event A happens, then event B happens. That's correlation. The flaw is thinking that just because B followed A, A caused B. It's flawed reasoning and drawing a conclusion on it (as you and these parents have done) is incorrect.

Children start to exhibit behaviours from autism around the same age as they receive a round of vaccines. It makes as much sense to say potty-training causes autism.

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2. Every doctor who speaks against vaccinations has their medical license taken away.
Evidence? Sounds like something made up just to sound scary and appeal to people's sense of freedom.

And even if it were true, so? If a doctor advocated using leeches, or talked about the four humors, or wanted to do some blood letting should they have their license taken away? Is it terrible to censure a doctor who speaks out against the germ theory of disease?
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:24 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdogg View Post
I have interest in this issue, as I have a 14 month old little one and had to make decisions to vaccinate him. We did decide to give him almost all of the vaccinations, but did things a little differently. We delayed most shots until he was a several months older, and also split up multiple vaccinations is was suppose to receive at one time. We have decided to wait on the MMR until he is older (probably until he goes to daycare or school).

We decided to do this for two reasons:
1 . We have a good friend who works with autistic children. She said that mostly all parents have a common theme claiming vaccinations changed their children.
2. Every doctor who speaks against vaccinations has their medical license taken away.


I do realize it is in the best interest of the world's population that everyone is protected, but my above 2 points give me an uneasy feeling.
This is the kind of second hand "information" that does nothing but perpetuate a fear that has no scientific support.

The reason parents associate the two is that autistic symptoms appear around the same time you get your kid immunized.

Just because you got your child immunized around the same time that your kid is also old enough to begin exhibiting signs of autism does not mean they are related. Correlation does NOT equal causation.

Science has been testing the bejeebus out of this and nothing has every come to light showing any sort of causation of Autism due to vaccination.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:24 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by kdogg View Post
We decided to do this for two reasons:
1 . We have a good friend who works with autistic children. She said that mostly all parents have a common theme claiming vaccinations changed their children.
This is garbage and anyone with the ability to think critically can see it.

First off: Parents are looking for something or someone to blame for their precious snowflake's condition.

Second: They heard about this possible link between vaccines and autism from some C list celebrity or some chick that got famous for showing her tits in a men's magazine. These are definitely more credible sources than... you know... scientists and doctors. There's an easy out to pin the blame on. Who knows - bitch about it enough and you might be able to turn your little one into a cash cow through the magic of a lawsuit!

Third: Claims that changes happen after vaccinations are not entirely BS. In vaccinated and un-vaccinated kids there is a certain age where autism starts to present itself. Fancy that.... it's right around the time when normal, sane parents vaccinate their kids. For someone looking for something to blame, this makes it easy to blame the vaccination. Please keep this in mind though: Correlation does not imply causation.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:25 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by photon View Post
So you listen to those, but ignore the parents who had vaccinations a claim they didn't change their child.. why? Why listen to one but not the other?

Or why ignore the many studies done with actual data?

You (and the other parents) are committing a very basic error in reasoning in thinking correlation equals causation.

Event A happens, then event B happens. That's correlation. The flaw is thinking that just because B followed A, A caused B. It's flawed reasoning and drawing a conclusion on it (as you and these parents have done) is incorrect.

Children start to exhibit behaviours from autism around the same age as they receive a round of vaccines. It makes as much sense to say potty-training causes autism.



Evidence? Sounds like something made up just to sound scary and appeal to people's sense of freedom.

And even if it were true, so? If a doctor advocated using leeches, or talked about the four humors, or wanted to do some blood letting should they have their license taken away? Is it terrible to censure a doctor who speaks out against the germ theory of disease?
Dammit, you beat me to the post by like 30 seconds, making all the same points.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:31 AM   #72
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Our office regularly arranges for free seasonal flu vaccines each year. Someone at our office this past December, when asked whether he had signed up for the flu shot, said that he didn't because he didn't want to catch autism.

True story.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:32 AM   #73
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Vaccines cause Autism. Its a fact, and I know its true because Tom Cruise told me so.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:32 AM   #74
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Our office regularly arranges for free seasonal flu vaccines each year. Someone at our office this past December, when asked whether he had signed up for the flu shot, said that he didn't because he didn't want to catch autism.

True story.
Wow. I hope his billable hourly rate is severely discounted.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:33 AM   #75
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Medical sciences is a tricky business. The people who work in the field are genuinely trying to understand and improve human life. It is a thankless job at almost any level. You earn little money and generally little prestige. These people do it because they want to help. All the while, the general public is waiting to crucify you.

Also, I'm getting tired of the "on the payroll of big pharma" thing. Every research group I've ever been associated with has been funded by almost any big pharma company you can think of. We also receive heavy funding from various provincial and federal government agencies. Not once has ANYONE outside of the research group told us what to report. It just doesn't happen like that. If these companies/agencies didn't give us money for our work, who would? Based on the crap I've seen Mikey write over the years I don't think he'd be one to cut a cheque to a research group.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:47 AM   #76
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I love this thread and I'm very impressed by most of the information and insight you guys are able offer.

I have never put much thought in to this issue until now but it is timely considering we are planning on having children in the very near future (this year).

While I consider myself to be a very rational, objective minded person, I can understand the fear and doubt in parents' minds ....even if we are talking about correlation and not causation. To those posters who talk about parents and their precious 'snowflake' jumping to conclusions, I can't help but question whether i wouldn't react the same way if my child was involved ...and whether you wouldn't also. If you had a seemingly healthy child who took a turn for the worse shortly after receiving a vaccination, would you still be so sure about your convictions? Or would you naturally have questions and dreadful thoughts that you were somehow partly to blame for this?

Again, I am on the vaccinate side of this argument. I just think we should cut people some slack who have endured a very traumatic event and are asking questions. It doesn't make them quacks.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:50 AM   #77
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Our office regularly arranges for free seasonal flu vaccines each year. Someone at our office this past December, when asked whether he had signed up for the flu shot, said that he didn't because he didn't want to catch autism.

True story.

Oh wow . . . just . . . wow.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:52 AM   #78
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I find it funny that I am cautious-pro-vaccinations, and draw such a response from pro-vaccinations.

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So you listen to those, but ignore the parents who had vaccinations a claim they didn't change their child.. why? Why listen to one but not the other?

Or why ignore the many studies done with actual data?

You (and the other parents) are committing a very basic error in reasoning in thinking correlation equals causation.

Event A happens, then event B happens. That's correlation. The flaw is thinking that just because B followed A, A caused B. It's flawed reasoning and drawing a conclusion on it (as you and these parents have done) is incorrect.
No, I'm not ignoring the fact that 99.99999999% of the people are probably okay from the vaccination. It just isn't a chance I don't want to take with my child right now. He will receive the vaccination one day.

If now is the time he will develop autism, I just don't want kick myself later on if he happens to develop autism right soon after he was scheduled to get the vaccination. Is there much harm in waiting a year or two? I just feel like his body can handle a little more.


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Evidence? Sounds like something made up just to sound scary and appeal to people's sense of freedom.

And even if it were true, so? If a doctor advocated using leeches, or talked about the four humors, or wanted to do some blood letting should they have their license taken away? Is it terrible to censure a doctor who speaks out against the germ theory of disease?
Sorry, no evidence, and I shouldn't have stated it as fact. Just pure observation on my part.

I am no means a pro on the issue, and by no means I have evidence. Just wanted to say that my two points has made me feel uneasy about the vaccination (mostly the MMR), and that I am going to take some sort of precautions.

Last edited by kdogg; 01-06-2011 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:55 AM   #79
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I love this thread and I'm very impressed by most of the information and insight you guys are able offer.

I have never put much thought in to this issue until now but it is timely considering we are planning on having children in the very near future (this year).

While I consider myself to be a very rational, objective minded person, I can understand the fear and doubt in parents' minds ....even if we are talking about correlation and not causation. To those posters who talk about parents and their precious 'snowflake' jumping to conclusions, I can't help but question whether i wouldn't react the same way if my child was involved ...and whether you wouldn't also. If you had a seemingly healthy child who took a turn for the worse shortly after receiving a vaccination, would you still be so sure about your convictions? Or would you naturally have questions and dreadful thoughts that you were somehow partly to blame for this?

Again, I am on the vaccinate side of this argument. I just think we should cut people some slack who have endured a very traumatic event and are asking questions. It doesn't make them quacks.
Agreed - While we are discussing this objectively, there is a very emotional human element to this.
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:57 AM   #80
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Low immunisation behind South Australian whooping cough outbreak (Nov. 2009)

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/s...-1225794469308
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