Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 11-20-2019, 11:57 AM   #1541
shermanator
Franchise Player
 
shermanator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by browna View Post
Easy counterpoint to that is that if you can’t beat clubs and countries not even sanctioned with FIFA, you probably don’t belong in FIFA’s top championship tournament. And the dreadful result to Haiti isn’t far behind, given their FIFA accreditation has to be hanging on by a thread.

The Gold Cup seems to need other teams to fill out numbers for groupings, and that goes both ways. Probably some minnows just can’t afford to go, while others can.

Recall when Canada won in 2000 they beat Columbia in the tournament final game, though they were already Concacaf champions after beating T and T in Semis.
And Canada only got through the second round thanks to winning a coin flip over S Korea.
...you seem to be casually omitting the fact that Canada knocked out Mexico in that tournament.
__________________

shermanator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2019, 11:07 PM   #1542
browna
Franchise Player
 
browna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shermanator View Post
...you seem to be casually omitting the fact that Canada knocked out Mexico in that tournament.
Not causally omitting anything.

Responding to the issue being made about non Concacaf teams playing in Concacaf championship, pointing out it’s been done in the past, as we had to get past 2 non Concacaf teams to win that tourney. I believe there was one other invited guest team that year.
browna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2019, 03:36 AM   #1543
ditty
Backup Goalie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by browna View Post
Easy counterpoint to that is that if you can’t beat clubs and countries not even sanctioned with FIFA, you probably don’t belong in FIFA’s top championship tournament. And the dreadful result to Haiti isn’t far behind, given their FIFA accreditation has to be hanging on by a thread.

The Gold Cup seems to need other teams to fill out numbers for groupings, and that goes both ways. Probably some minnows just can’t afford to go, while others can.

Recall when Canada won in 2000 they beat Columbia in the tournament final game, though they were already Concacaf champions after beating T and T in Semis.
And Canada only got through the second round thanks to winning a coin flip over S Korea.
My point is that our defeat of non-FIFA member Martinique in the last Gold Cup did not provide us with any ranking points, whereas a victory over a FIFA member would have. So, those teams who draw non-FIFA members in the Gold Cup kind of get punished in that there aren't the same number of possible points available to them to earn just by the luck of the draw compared to other CONCACAF teams who draw only FIFA members in their group. It's not a question of whether or not we can or can't beat non-FIFA members, it's the matter of not getting the opportunity to earn points.

Also, non-FIFA members are not excluded from FIFA because of their competitiveness, or lack thereof. Martinique and Guadeloupe are overseas departments of France. That's why they're not considered FIFA members. Although some non-independent nations are FIFA members (i.e. Palestine).

The Gold Cup has had guest teams before but Martinique and Guadeloupe are not guest teams. They are full members of CONCACAF and qualify for the Gold Cup against other CONCACAF nations. They're not just thrown in there to make up the numbers.

Also, in your 2000 Gold Cup scenario, we would have hypothetically earned points for beating Colombia as they are a FIFA nation, regardless of not being a CONCACAF nation. By today's rankings, we would have earned big points. But if we had faced a non-FIFA nation in that final, there would be no potential points at stake. That's my point.
ditty is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ditty For This Useful Post:
Old 11-21-2019, 09:08 AM   #1544
corporatejay
Franchise Player
 
corporatejay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Exp:
Default

This system seems overly complicated. How can they expect casual fans to follow this?
__________________
corporatejay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2019, 10:01 AM   #1545
TheIronMaiden
Franchise Player
 
TheIronMaiden's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: ATCO Field, Section 201
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by corporatejay View Post
This system seems overly complicated. How can they expect casual fans to follow this?

In a way I think that's the point. It helps keeps fans in the dark so it is more difficult to protest the rankings and seeds.
TheIronMaiden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2019, 10:08 AM   #1546
shermanator
Franchise Player
 
shermanator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Exp:
Default

FIFA rankings are out. Canada is now back in 7th place in CONCACAF rankings, 15 points behind El Salvador. They aren't making the Hex....

And while the qualifying format for the World Cup is terrible, I actually think they have a better shot at making the World Cup through the non-Hex route than they do through the Hex route. In a group with Mexico, the US, Costa Rica, Honduras and Jamaica, Canada would finish at best 4th, and likely 5th or 6th.

Despite the progress made, Mexico still dominated Canada at the Gold Cup (albeit Canada made it more respectable than usual). The US dominated Canada a few weeks ago. And Canada has always fallen flat on their asses in Honduras...

For me, Panama and maybe Curacao or Haiti are the only other countries that could win the non-Hex route. Panama away in a two leg series would be the big question mark, but Canada has traditionally played better in Panama than they have in places like Honduras, and Panama has not looked as strong at home lately with their loss to Bermuda. I think Canada would also light up Curacao or Haiti at home, enough to cover any potential loss in an away leg.
__________________

shermanator is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to shermanator For This Useful Post:
Old 11-28-2019, 10:47 AM   #1547
Jimmy Stang
Franchise Player
 
Jimmy Stang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

^ That's actually not a bad way to look at it. 5th and 6th in the hex are black holes (that Canada would have a high probability of falling into).

The non-hex route will still be a long slog with plenty of opportunities to trip up, and the format is still a sham. But I can see Canada getting some wins and at least knocking on the back door to qualify. The hex would have been a lot of parking the bus and trying to avoid losing instead of trying to win.

Silver Lining Sherm has given me optimism.
Jimmy Stang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2019, 11:10 AM   #1548
shermanator
Franchise Player
 
shermanator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Exp:
Default

Ya, the Hex has been this elusive goal that supporters crave because we haven't made it to that stage in the last 25 years, but the reality is we would get crushed in the Hex. That hasn't changed despite the progress made.
__________________

shermanator is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to shermanator For This Useful Post:
Old 11-28-2019, 11:44 AM   #1549
GirlySports
NOT breaking news
 
GirlySports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

There will be 29 teams in this tournament.
5 groups of 5 and 3 groups of 4.

The 8 group winners advance to the two legged quarterfinals.

As of today, the 8 seeded teams would be Canada, Curacao, Panama, Haiti, T&T, A&B, Guatemala and St. Kitts.

I think El Salvador will wish to be in this tournament rather than getting crushed in the Hex.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire

GirlySports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2019, 12:22 PM   #1550
Arsenal14
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Arsenal14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlySports View Post
There will be 29 teams in this tournament.
5 groups of 5 and 3 groups of 4.

The 8 group winners advance to the two legged quarterfinals.

As of today, the 8 seeded teams would be Canada, Curacao, Panama, Haiti, T&T, A&B, Guatemala and St. Kitts.

I think El Salvador will wish to be in this tournament rather than getting crushed in the Hex.
Sure, but the problem is not getting through the group stage. The problem is that we'll have to beat three of the other group winners in a row, then one of the hex teams, then a team from Asia/South America/Oceania with basically no margin for error. That's a pretty big task.

Do I think we'd qualify out of the Hex? No, probably not. But it isn't out of the question - really only Mexico is in good form right now. Costa Rica, Jamaica and Honduras are not as strong as they've been in the past and the US is no sure thing either.
Arsenal14 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Arsenal14 For This Useful Post:
Old 11-28-2019, 12:38 PM   #1551
GirlySports
NOT breaking news
 
GirlySports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

I dont think Canada can get 3rd so you're at best in the 4th vs winner playoff anyways.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire

GirlySports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2019, 09:54 PM   #1552
browna
Franchise Player
 
browna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal14 View Post
Sure, but the problem is not getting through the group stage. The problem is that we'll have to beat three of the other group winners in a row, then one of the hex teams, then a team from Asia/South America/Oceania with basically no margin for error. That's a pretty big task.

Do I think we'd qualify out of the Hex? No, probably not. But it isn't out of the question - really only Mexico is in good form right now. Costa Rica, Jamaica and Honduras are not as strong as they've been in the past and the US is no sure thing either.
Agreed. I like the chances of catching lightning in a bottle in the Hex in a sink or swim pressure environment, as beating the US has shown it’s not in an entire different level as the teams outside of Mexico if they play their best. Get a couple draws on the road, get a lucky one, get a couple poor weather cold games here, get an opponent with injury troubles or off a bad day, play the under dog role, and you never know...but the route is a lot more direct.

As for the non hex, Canada still hasn’t proven fully that they don’t play down to lesser opponents as well. With little margin for error past the group stage, coasting along hopefully clobbering the St. Kitts of the tournament, but then have to suddenly gear up onto some bigger fish, and play a lot more games, it’s a lot to ask.

Still recall 94. Bunbury puts Canada up by 1 in a WC clincher vs Mexico at Varsity Stadium. Then choke away two that afternoon. Playoff was more straightforward then...a two legger with Oceana champ Aus, and I remember the feed cutting out from Aus in TSN late in the second half of the second leg, right after Aus scored to level the aggregate, only audio was available the rest of the way, and had to listen to the 4-1 loss in PKs.

Aus then had to play 4th place South American team, which was,Argentina in a two legger, and only lost by 1 goal over two matches. Diego then went onto the US and got punted for his coke use.

Last edited by browna; 11-28-2019 at 09:56 PM.
browna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 02:48 PM   #1553
Matty81
#1 Goaltender
 
Matty81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Exp:
Default

I think Canada would be been quite competitive in the hex with a great shot at top 4 - maybe I am optimistic but I think this current squad could have done that. And the B tournament is a bit of a joke. The 4th place hex team should not be let back into the tournament after the B champ crawls over 28 other nations. It's like CONCACAF wanted to eliminate those 29 nations right off the hop but legally had to include them.

For me the slim chance there is totally hinges on if CONCACAF draws CONMEBOL in the inter confed playoff. Anyone else there is a remote chance, but if they get South America, I think I have a better chance of winning the lottery. That'll probably be Chile, Columbia or Peru who I feel will destroy Canada even if they win the 3 or 4 tough home and aways before that.

Should be a classic CONCACAF early stages cakewalk until the quarters unless their luck is really bad. So real competition is likely home and aways vs. three of Panama, Curacao, Haiti, Trini and that other group Arsenal described. Then home and away against Costa Rica or Honduras. Home and Away against inter confed. 10 meaningful games and Canada needs to win or draw almost every one (barring racking up a big goal diff in one leg).

For me this is way way harder/slimmer margin for error than going into the hex and picking up 3 or 4 wins in 6 games against CR, Honduras and Jamaica.
Matty81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2019, 08:56 AM   #1554
shermanator
Franchise Player
 
shermanator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Exp:
Default

Canada will play Iceland in a friendly in January.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1211662745168424960
__________________


Last edited by shermanator; 12-30-2019 at 02:23 PM.
shermanator is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to shermanator For This Useful Post:
Old 01-03-2020, 11:36 AM   #1555
shermanator
Franchise Player
 
shermanator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Exp:
Default

So, about that lack of friendlies. There are 3 friendlies in this camp. 2 against Barbados on January 7 and January 10, and the friendly against Iceland on January 15.

With the upcoming Olympic qualifiers happening in March, the roster is a U23 heavy squad.

GK- Marco Carducci | CAN / Cavalry FC (Calgary)
GK- Maxime Crépeau | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
GK- James Pantemis | CAN / Impact de Montréal
CB- Derek Cornelius | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
CB- Amer Didić | CAN / FC Edmonton
CB- Manjrekar James | DEN / FC Midtjylland
CB- Kamal Miller | USA / Orlando City SC
FB- Samuel Adekugbe | NOR / Vålerenga Fotball
FB- Zorhan Bassong | BEL / Cercle Brugge KSV
FB- Marcus Godinho | GER / FSV Zwickau
FB- Richie Laryea | CAN / Toronto FC
FB- Ashtone Morgan | CAN / Toronto FC
M- Tristan Borges | CAN / Forge FC Hamilton
M- Jay Chapman | USA / Inter Miami CF
M- Liam Fraser | CAN / Toronto FC
M- Noble Okello | CAN / Toronto FC
M- Jonathan Osorio | CAN / Toronto FC
M- Samuel Piette | CAN / Impact de Montréal
M- Shamit Shome | CAN / Impact de Montréal
M- Russell Teibert | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
F- Tesho Akindele | USA / Orlando City SC
F- Theo Bair | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
F- Charles-Andreas Brym | POR / Belenenses SAD U-23
F- Jayden Nelson | CAN / Toronto FC II
F- Tosaint Ricketts | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
F- Jacob Shaffelburg | CAN / Toronto FC

https://canadasoccer.com/canada-socc...y-camp-p162533
__________________

shermanator is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to shermanator For This Useful Post:
Old 01-03-2020, 01:36 PM   #1556
Arsenal14
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Arsenal14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shermanator View Post
So, about that lack of friendlies. There are 3 friendlies in this camp. 2 against Barbados on January 7 and January 10, and the friendly against Iceland on January 15.

With the upcoming Olympic qualifiers happening in March, the roster is a U23 heavy squad.

GK- Marco Carducci | CAN / Cavalry FC (Calgary)
GK- Maxime Crépeau | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
GK- James Pantemis | CAN / Impact de Montréal
CB- Derek Cornelius | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
CB- Amer Didić | CAN / FC Edmonton
CB- Manjrekar James | DEN / FC Midtjylland
CB- Kamal Miller | USA / Orlando City SC
FB- Samuel Adekugbe | NOR / Vålerenga Fotball
FB- Zorhan Bassong | BEL / Cercle Brugge KSV
FB- Marcus Godinho | GER / FSV Zwickau
FB- Richie Laryea | CAN / Toronto FC
FB- Ashtone Morgan | CAN / Toronto FC
M- Tristan Borges | CAN / Forge FC Hamilton
M- Jay Chapman | USA / Inter Miami CF
M- Liam Fraser | CAN / Toronto FC
M- Noble Okello | CAN / Toronto FC
M- Jonathan Osorio | CAN / Toronto FC
M- Samuel Piette | CAN / Impact de Montréal
M- Shamit Shome | CAN / Impact de Montréal
M- Russell Teibert | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
F- Tesho Akindele | USA / Orlando City SC
F- Theo Bair | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
F- Charles-Andreas Brym | POR / Belenenses SAD U-23
F- Jayden Nelson | CAN / Toronto FC II
F- Tosaint Ricketts | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
F- Jacob Shaffelburg | CAN / Toronto FC

https://canadasoccer.com/canada-socc...y-camp-p162533
Theoretically if we win all three games and El Salvador loses to both Iceland and the US we'd close the gap to 6 points with 2 international windows left. Of course, none of that is a given since the January games will see all of the teams playing with weaker than usual rosters. I suspect El Salvador has a lot of domestic players that will be available while Iceland will not be bringing a great team.
Arsenal14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2020, 02:33 PM   #1557
Bill Bumface
My face is a bum!
 
Bill Bumface's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shermanator View Post
So, about that lack of friendlies. There are 3 friendlies in this camp. 2 against Barbados on January 7 and January 10, and the friendly against Iceland on January 15.

With the upcoming Olympic qualifiers happening in March, the roster is a U23 heavy squad.

GK- Marco Carducci | CAN / Cavalry FC (Calgary)
GK- Maxime Crépeau | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
GK- James Pantemis | CAN / Impact de Montréal
CB- Derek Cornelius | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
CB- Amer Didić | CAN / FC Edmonton
CB- Manjrekar James | DEN / FC Midtjylland
CB- Kamal Miller | USA / Orlando City SC
FB- Samuel Adekugbe | NOR / Vålerenga Fotball
FB- Zorhan Bassong | BEL / Cercle Brugge KSV
FB- Marcus Godinho | GER / FSV Zwickau
FB- Richie Laryea | CAN / Toronto FC
FB- Ashtone Morgan | CAN / Toronto FC
M- Tristan Borges | CAN / Forge FC Hamilton
M- Jay Chapman | USA / Inter Miami CF
M- Liam Fraser | CAN / Toronto FC
M- Noble Okello | CAN / Toronto FC
M- Jonathan Osorio | CAN / Toronto FC
M- Samuel Piette | CAN / Impact de Montréal
M- Shamit Shome | CAN / Impact de Montréal
M- Russell Teibert | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
F- Tesho Akindele | USA / Orlando City SC
F- Theo Bair | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
F- Charles-Andreas Brym | POR / Belenenses SAD U-23
F- Jayden Nelson | CAN / Toronto FC II
F- Tosaint Ricketts | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC
F- Jacob Shaffelburg | CAN / Toronto FC

https://canadasoccer.com/canada-socc...y-camp-p162533

Ricketts and Morgan.

1) TIL Ricketts is still playing professionally
2) I love both those guys, but is this the retirement tour, or trying to mentor the young 'uns?
Bill Bumface is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2020, 06:29 PM   #1558
Ozy_Flame

Posted the 6 millionth post!
 
Ozy_Flame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Exp:
Default

Davies not playing. Damn.
Ozy_Flame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2020, 03:29 AM   #1559
ditty
Backup Goalie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame View Post
Davies not playing. Damn.
That would have helped for sure but I don't think he was ever going to be released by Bayern during a non-FIFA international window regardless of whether he was playing regularly. Now given his ever-presence and performances at LB the last few weeks, there was no chance in hell he'd be at this camp. Bayern are doing their winter break training camp in Qatar as usual and the Bundesliga resumes on Jan 17.
ditty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2020, 12:04 PM   #1560
shermanator
Franchise Player
 
shermanator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Exp:
Default

Given that this isn't a FIFA window most of the European clubs were never going to release their players for this camp. James is an exception given that his club have made it known he's not in their plans, and Godinho being called to a camp gives a 3. Liga squad a little swagger. But it's not just isolated to European clubs. Cavallini was held back by the Whitecaps and Kaye was held back by LAFC.

There is still enough talent to give a non-full strength Iceland squad a battle but I don't think it will be easy. And the Barbados games are good chances to test out some depth and U-23 players.
__________________

shermanator is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:46 AM.

Calgary Flames
2023-24




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021