[Trade] Flames acquire goalie Daniel Vladar from Bruins for 2022 3rd

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Itse

There's also the inherent problem in trading picks for players: in the long term you're going to get players that are as good as the pick is worth on average, while half the teams in the league will inevitably draft better than average.

If you have a below average team to begin with, it's easy to improve to an average team by trading picks, but every draft pick you don't make will also make it that much more likely that you will never catch up to teams that drafted better than average or were better to begin with.

And that's exactly where we are now: A below average team making trades to become an average team, so we can squeeze into the playoffs and then hope Darryl Sutter is magic.

(I don't mind this particular trade though.)

Way too simplistic of a view - and molded to fit a narrative.

3rd and 4th round picks produce a player in 4 or 5 years (if at all). It is almost impossible to predict where any franchise will be in 4 or 5 years. It s also impossible to predict how many draft picks they will acquire or trade away over that time.

In this case, the Flames traded a 3rd round pick next year (potential player in 2025 or 2026) for a 3rd round pick in 2015 who is on the verge of becoming an NHLer this year.

Trying to paint a negative slant on that is a pure exercise in blind bias.

Was trading a pick for Kipper part of the constant cycle of the Flames trying to become mediocre?

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Aren't you describing every GM?

You expend picks when you are competing, and acquire picks when you are falling.

The issue is the judgement of when you should go all in, and as I've said about 2 dozen times, he was wrong to bet on Gaudreau and Monahan as 2/3 of a top line.

A fairly strong majority of people on this site seemed to feel the same way at the time however.

You’re not going to get much of a response from many, but the bolded...herein lies the Flames biggest issue.

Johnny and Mony are not good enough to outperform and /or outcompete other contenders’ best players.

Yep, the truth hurts.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Aren't you describing every GM?

You expend picks when you are competing, and acquire picks when you are falling.

The issue is the judgement of when you should go all in, and as I've said about 2 dozen times, he was wrong to bet on Gaudreau and Monahan as 2/3 of a top line.

A fairly strong majority of people on this site seemed to feel the same way at the time however.

I don't see quite that way. It's not all in or all out. Every off season you see competitive teams move out players for picks as part of their broader strategy.

This off season so far Boston, Washington, Florida, Carolina, Columbus, NYR, Dallas, Colorado have all made trades where players went out and picks came back. Last off season, Vegas, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Nashville, Florida, Carolina, St. louis, Toronto were those teams.

Trading players for picks doesn't have to mean you're giving up. It's an arrow in your quiver for managing your assets and accumulating wealth.

It seems the Flames are always chasing so they feel they can't afford to lose anything form their roster.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by timbit

You’re not going to get much of a response from many, but the bolded...herein lies the Flames biggest issue.

Johnny and Mony are not good enough to outperform and /or outcompete other contenders’ best players.

Yep, the truth hurts.

It is true, especially because they aren't good enough defensively to match up against other top lines (which inevitably happens) and they aren't dominant enough so that it doesn't matter because they hem the other team in so much. Especially if Lindholm is not the RW. Aside from up north, I can't think of a team who's main offensive line is like that. Maybe Montreal, and TB exposed that by putting Point against Suzuki as much as possible.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I don't see quite that way. It's not all in or all out. Every off season you see competitive teams move out players for picks as part of their broader strategy.

This off season so far Boston, Washington, Florida, Carolina, Columbus, NYR, Dallas, Colorado have all made trades where players went out and picks came back. Last off season, Vegas, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Nashville, Florida, Carolina, St. louis, Toronto were those teams.

Trading players for picks doesn't have to mean you're giving up. It's an arrow in your quiver for managing your assets and accumulating wealth.

It seems the Flames are always chasing so they feel they can't afford to lose anything form their roster.

Yet this year they traded 2 players for picks, at a time when they clearly felt they were chasing down a PO spot.

BTW - Florida has not acquired picks this off season. They traded a first and Levi for Reinart and traded a '22 2nd for a '23 7th as part of the Stralman cap dump.

[Lanny_McDonald]

This is a trade that has potential to be quite astute. I hope this turns into one of those small moves that turns into something big down the line.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It is true, especially because they aren't good enough defensively to match up against other top lines (which inevitably happens) and they aren't dominant enough so that it doesn't matter because they hem the other team in so much. Especially if Lindholm is not the RW. Aside from up north, I can't think of a team who's main offensive line is like that. Maybe Montreal, and TB exposed that by putting Point against Suzuki as much as possible.

Wait, so when Gaudreau and an injured Monahan are paired with a bottom 6 RW they can’t compete against other teams’ top lines? Shocking!

Lindholm is the only top 6 RW that line has had in the past 3 years, and when he was on that line, the 2nd line was a mess.

The problem with the Gaudreau/Monahan duo (aside from many injuries) is that with the RWs they have been paired with, especially last season, they may as well have been playing short handed with the lack of contribution from their RW. How many top lines dominate the opposition’s top line while playing short handed?

Back on topic, though, I think we have something in Vladar, I just hope he’s NHL ready, because if not, we will have to trade him or lose him on waivers.

[devo22]

I understand people being pissed about bleeding mid-round picks for the Fantenbergs and Forborts of the hockey world ... short-term depth players that really don't move the needle at all. I hate that too. But this is the sort of move I can get behind ... Vladar could potentially be a long-term piece for us. Will be interesting to see if he can take that step from the AHL to regular NHL backup duty. Let's hope we've got a good one here.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

Wait, so when Gaudreau and an injured Monahan are paired with a bottom 6 RW they can’t compete against other teams’ top lines? Shocking!

Lindholm is the only top 6 RW that line has had in the past 3 years, and when he was on that line, the 2nd line was a mess.

The problem with the Gaudreau/Monahan duo (aside from many injuries) is that with the RWs they have been paired with, especially last season, they may as well have been playing short handed with the lack of contribution from their RW. How many top lines dominate the opposition’s top line while playing short handed?

They were exposed even with Lindholm, after a while. I think the bubble year showed that. I don't think they could really compete with a Ferland or a Hudler. They'd obviously do better, but IMO they wouldn't be good enough to face a top line head to head.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yet this year they traded 2 players for picks, at a time when they clearly felt they were chasing down a PO spot.

BTW - Florida has not acquired picks this off season. They traded a first and Levi for Reinart and traded a '22 2nd for a '23 7th as part of the Stralman cap dump.

Flames were sellers and on the outside looking in. Sorry but I'm not giving credit to an organization for being out of a playoff spot. It's basic operating procedure to sell in that scenario.

You are 100% right on Florida, that is my mistake. I don't really feel like that changes my view and they did sell a player for a pick last off season.

In eight off seasons thus far, how many times has Treliving traded for draft capital? Reinhart and McCollum were traded for conditional picks, neither of which materialized. That is eight off seasons of being all in. IMO that's not really the way to do it.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

This is a trade that has potential to be quite astute. I hope this turns into one of those small moves that turns into something big down the line.

Fear of the unknown.

Not everyone keeps tabs on third string goalies around the league (or ones from overseas).

The Flames have been following (and assumably targeting) this particular player for quite some time now. That's why there's pro scouts, who are every bit as diligent as the amateur scouts.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

They were exposed even with Lindholm, after a while. I think the bubble year showed that. I don't think they could really compete with a Ferland or a Hudler. They'd obviously do better, but IMO they wouldn't be good enough to face a top line head to head.

I think Gaudreau is good enough, but Monahan is not because he doesn't bring a lot of the playdriving elements need from a center. Lumping them together is a false premise.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I think Gaudreau is good enough, but Monahan is not because he doesn't bring a lot of the playdriving elements need from a center. Lumping them together is a false premise.

Well, if you pair either one with 2 elite players, yes, they could excel. But both need 2 excellent players IMO. They both have big holes in their game such that they aren’t “the man”.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, if you pair either one with 2 elite players, yes, they could excel. But both need 2 excellent players IMO. They both have big holes in their game such that they aren’t “the man”.

I just don't get your point, though. You need multiple elite players to win. I don't think Ovechkin or Kucherov or Kane are doing much stapled to Monahan either.

[darthma]

Originally Posted by AC

Mods please grant this poster a new username... with a randomly capitalized letter.

Me too! Pick me a new name! Especially after wading through this star wars heavy thread. I want nothing to do with it anymore. I came in hoping for highlight reels. Instead darth vader gifs.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Aren't you describing every GM?

You expend picks when you are competing, and acquire picks when you are falling.

The issue is the judgement of when you should go all in, and as I've said about 2 dozen times, he was wrong to bet on Gaudreau and Monahan as 2/3 of a top line.

A fairly strong majority of people on this site seemed to feel the same way at the time however.

In my mind Treliving envisioned his future core to be from goalie out (from 2015 onwards):

Gillies Hamilton Gio Brodie Backlund Bennett Monahan and Gaudreau
The team won a series in 14-15 where Bennett looked very much on track to become the 1C. Then he traded picks to add Hamilton (same age group and perhaps the player to build around).

I think CGY has wanted to win a cup in the Gio window and that's what drove the decisions of when to go for it. I could be wrong but that's my first blush at it.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Way too simplistic of a view - and molded to fit a narrative.

3rd and 4th round picks produce a player in 4 or 5 years (if at all). It is almost impossible to predict where any franchise will be in 4 or 5 years. It s also impossible to predict how many draft picks they will acquire or trade away over that time.

In this case, the Flames traded a 3rd round pick next year (potential player in 2025 or 2026) for a 3rd round pick in 2015 who is on the verge of becoming an NHLer this year.

Trying to paint a negative slant on that is a pure exercise in blind bias.

Was trading a pick for Kipper part of the constant cycle of the Flames trying to become mediocre?

Obviously sometimes you win a trade, but I would claim it's fairly obvious that your chances of getting more than you paid for keep dropping the more years a prospect/player has.

You get more of a sure thing that's closer to ready, but you pay for that by missing out on the chance of getting someone much better.

Not necessarily for goalies, they're pretty much just voodoo, so sometimes you do get a Kipper, but other than that you typically just get what you pay for. That's why we have rebuilds. Building through the draft is high risk high reward game which fails for most teams. Building through trades is more of a low risk low reward game.

Obviously in real life you have to do a bit of both.

[sureLoss]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1420912007037947905

[getbak]

My question, did his girlfriend already have the Flames shirt, or are they that easy to buy in Prague?

Either way, awesome.

[FlamesAddiction]

I remember his draft year and hoping we would draft him because he has a cool name. Better late than never.