So tell me about wills.

[fotze2]

Whatchu talkin' bout Wills.

[undercoverbrother]

#### this makes me think I should redo the will I wrote in 1993

[Titan2]

Originally Posted by troutman

The fees range from $1200 to $2000 + depending on the firm (more downtown). We are in the SE.

The signing is in person. Much of the consulting can be done remotely.

I assume there is a MASSIVE CP discount.

You do not look at all like Johnny Cash.

If you do a will for UCB make sure you force him to thank all of your posts for a year. He loves that.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Izzle

Firebug, do effectively execute the will?

I wanted my wife to be the executor of my will, but if something were to happen, I doubt she'd be in the emotional state to execute the will.

I'd much rather have a 3rd party execute the will and have the company take a fee for the services they provide.

If there are going to be complexities like this, design your will to be mostly automatic in the way that it basically auto executes to your spouse (ie: Rollovers) and there won't be major headaches even if the spouse files tax returns late and whatnot. Consider doing some tax planning so that there isn't a huge tax liability that pops up on the deemed dispositions when you pass away.

If you want to give stuff to your kids, do it while inter vivos (alive) so they cannot contest it while gone AND it doesn't have to be manually done via instructions in the will. Just make sure you know what you're doing tax wise residents, non-residents, deemed disposition on transfers (taxable event). Careful with the will stipulations and joint names (deemed dispositions and new bare trust filing requirements)

For the final return, make it simple so that the whole thing can be wrapped up on the T1final. Just make sure that your accountant knows how to do final returns so you don't have to have your trustees/executors go through the process of going to someone else (ie: DIY tax filings or tax filer who doesn't know final returns).

Final returns + trust returns are far more complex than regular returns due to deemed disposition/rollover rules and special rules. They're many times more complex than yearly filings when someone is alive even when some people say, "The situation was pretty simple". Make sure you don't have someone who doesn't know what they're doing and screw you over several times in the tax savings that were missed out due to the savings you got on their fees. ie: I've seen filings where the death benefit is claimed on the deceased's T1Final. That's incorrect.

Tax preppers also cannot file the return appropriately if information is missing. Duress certainly doesn't help, but many people are suddenly upset that a number "cannot be made up" to fulfill filing requirements.

Once you file and everything is sorted out, make sure to apply for the clearance certificate to close down that tax account.

Approx 10 pages to get up to date to file a regular personal tax return.
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-age...ng-season.html

Approx 120+ pages excluding references of what to be aware of when filing a final return.
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-age...d-persons.html

Build a binder with all of the relevant tax information (last 3 years), legal information, login-passwords for websites etc. that someone can grab later to carry out your wishes. If you are a spouse that does almost all of the finances, make sure your spouse is aware of what is going on and how to deal with things if you are unable to do so. A portion of setting your affairs in order is more than just prepping everything yourself, but getting others involved so that the transition is smooth without your guidance.

Originally Posted by Locke

I have mentioned this a million times from a Tax perspective.

Get a Will.

Get an Enduring POA.

You do NOT want to be in a position where you have to make decisions for people without these documents in place.

Yep. I've run into a few.

It took months and combinations of searching in a pack rat type home for a needle in a haystack or paying a lawyer to request new copies. If you have a filing, get started early (ie: February). Some things are hard to find, some things require several weeks to request 3rd parties to obtain/re-obtain.

"We don't know where they stored the information, don't know the passcodes, it's in a safe and we haven't found the combination, encrypted computers and we don't know the password, we don't know where they even do their banking + they have 5-6 bank accounts and we don't know which one has their safety deposit box" etc.

And as mentioned above, a final return is a complicated matter. It's not as simple as a typical normal tax filing. You don't want extra stress at a time that's already stressful.

A will/POA is a good start, but you have to review and revise them every 5-7 years. Also, cleaning up your tax situation while alive (if it's a messy tax situation) is very important too. Some of these plans take several years to execute. Preparing these plans often aren't free, but even if it takes around $1-3K to investigate and execute a general plan, it'll probably save that and more in lawyer fees later on anyways. It's worth that and more in stress and headache reduction. That's not including potential tax savings which would be pure bonus.

[Fuzzy14]

If you want to give stuff to your kids, do it while inter vivos (alive) so they cannot contest it while gone AND it doesn't have to be manually done via instructions in the will.

I don't disagree with anything in DoubleF's post. Just be careful in that, if you are concerned about your estate being challenged, the fact that the transfer occurred prior to your passing does not automatically shield your beneficiaries and executors from a possible dispute.

If you have concerns about it, you should talk to a lawyer. They will help you navigate possible appearance of undue influence and, where applicable, how to deal with the presumption of resulting trust. In some situations, if the cost stars align, both tax and administrative, settling an inter vivos trust can be your best option.

[pseudoreality]

It is the estate planning piece that I get hung up on and has delayed me in getting a will.

My wife and I have two young kids. A lot of the will examples I've been shown talk about what happens if we both croak. However, if one of us goes while the kids are underage, I'm assuming all the assets just fall to the other. Is that correct?

[Toast_Man]

Originally Posted by firebug

I do Estate administration full time (not a lawyer however). If she owns real estate (with no other joint tenants) then a grant of probate will be required. Feel free to reach out if you have any specific questions.

Yes, you'll need to obtain either a GA8 Affidavit of Witness to a Will or GA9 Affidavit of Handwriting prepared. Were there two witnesses to the Will?

I'll be frank... Will Kits are big money for lawyers. It's rare I see one that is properly completed and when they go wrong it can be big big bucks to get resolved. I could share stories where beneficiaries were out hundreds of thousands of dollars because of a kit.

If you want to screw over a lawyer... pay them to prepare a will for you.

I have to know, what's something that would come up from a Will Kit that would put beneficiaries out hundreds of thousands of dollars?

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy14

I don't disagree with anything in DoubleF's post. Just be careful in that, if you are concerned about your estate being challenged, the fact that the transfer occurred prior to your passing does not automatically shield your beneficiaries and executors from a possible dispute.

If you have concerns about it, you should talk to a lawyer. They will help you navigate possible appearance of undue influence and, where applicable, how to deal with the presumption of resulting trust. In some situations, if the cost stars align, both tax and administrative, settling an inter vivos trust can be your best option.

Agreed. Good thing to highlight. But typically you're setting it up so they are sorting it out personally vs the estate being completely stuck with situation in limbo until it gets sorted out (and no one gets anything until it does).

Absolutely yes, talk to a lawyer, but I meant to be aware of it and consider it so that you can chat with a lawyer about it and figure out how to do it right or whether this type of situation is worth investigating for administrative, diplomacy and tax purposes.

Originally Posted by pseudoreality

It is the estate planning piece that I get hung up on and has delayed me in getting a will.

My wife and I have two young kids. A lot of the will examples I've been shown talk about what happens if we both croak. However, if one of us goes while the kids are underage, I'm assuming all the assets just fall to the other. Is that correct?

It depends on the situation, but I think it's ultimately still more work than having a will in place. Extra (unnecessary and preventable) work when someone is mourning is a factor to consider.

My understanding for young families is that the asset rollover to a spouse is less of an issue. It's guardianship of the children and asset guardianship for their well being that's the bigger issue. Otherwise, there could be a major issue that needs to be solved that amplifies the stressful situation to the point of being traumatizing vs just crappy to deal with.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Titan2

I had thought you were WAY up north. Thanks.

That was way back in the day! He's a Southie now!

[Fuzzy14]

It is the estate planning piece that I get hung up on and has delayed me in getting a will.

My wife and I have two young kids. A lot of the will examples I've been shown talk about what happens if we both croak. However, if one of us goes while the kids are underage, I'm assuming all the assets just fall to the other. Is that correct?

Most husbands and wives do mirrored Wills/EPA/PD. Spouse is each other's executor. Trustworthy family member(s) or friend(s) as alternate. Everything to spouse first, if they predecease, everything to kid(s). If children are underage, guardian to care for them (can be, but isn't necessarily, the same person as the executor). Inheritance held in trust until X age (Again trustee may be, but is not necessarily, the same as the executor).

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Toast_Man

I have to know, what's something that would come up from a Will Kit that would put beneficiaries out hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Not necessarily related to will kits, more just a poorly written will, but I know of a situation where beneficiaries were named specifically rather than in a more generic, inclusive way (i.e. Person A, Person B, Person C get $100K vs. my grandchildren each receive $100K). But the will was about 15-20 years out out of date by the time the person died, so the grandchildren born before the will was written were each entitled to $100K or so, while the ones born a year or two after the will was written were entitled to nothing.

It all got settled amicably with the decedent's children reducing their shares of the estate slightly so all the grandchildren received inheritances, but in a more contentious scenario the youngest grandchildren would have gotten nothing while their older siblings got significant sums. Any competent lawyer would have highlighted that possibility, but someone relying on a will kit might never think of it.

[firebug]

Originally Posted by Toast_Man

I have to know, what's something that would come up from a Will Kit that would put beneficiaries out hundreds of thousands of dollars?

I have a long list of 'experiences' due to will kits but this particular one was expensive.

Deceased was never married, had no children and was estranged from his 3 siblings but had retained a close relationship with one of his nephews. Didn't have much liquid assets but had owned his home in the Capital hill area. Used a kit to prep a will to name his nephew as executor and sole beneficiary... except he screwed up the beneficiary section and failed to appoint any residuary beneficiaries.

Typically this means the assets get distributed as per the intestacy rules meaning that his home was sold and the cash proceeds split equally between his 3 estranged siblings (who he disliked intensely) and his intended beneficiary missed out on a $750K property.

We referred this client out to a litigator (as we don't practice in that area) and the last word I got was that it "Didn't go well" for the client.

Now usually a screwed up will kit may only cost the estate an extra $2,500 or so to rectify but I've seen many that have cost $10k or more in legal costs... all to save what... $500 to $600 on a properly drafted will?

[troutman]

We are attempting to probate a "home made" will now. Grandma meant to make cash gifts to all grand children and great grand children, but did not specify a $ amount for each beneficiary. Likely these gifts are void for uncertainty, and the whole estate will go to the residuary beneficiaries.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by firebug

Now usually a screwed up will kit may only cost the estate an extra $2,500 or so to rectify but I've seen many that have cost $10k or more in legal costs... all to save what... $500 to $600 on a properly drafted will?

Any application that requires a special chambers hearing is going to be $30K + in legal fees (for each side). Legal costs often get paid from the estate, draining what is left for the beneficiaries.

[MoneyGuy]

We have two responsible adult children who get along great. Is it better to appoint only one as executor to avoid the hassle of them having to get together for decisions or name both. We already have wills but may update them. They live 30 minutes apart and both are married, one to a financial planner.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

We have two responsible adult children who get along great. Is it better to appoint only one as executor to avoid the hassle of them having to get together for decisions or name both. We already have wills but may update them. They live 30 minutes apart and both are married, one to a financial planner.

Pay someone to do it unless someone really wants to. It is the ####tiest job in an emotional time.

From your posts it sounds like you will end up with a large amount of assets to transfer.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by GGG

Pay someone to do it unless someone really wants to. It is the ####tiest job in an emotional time.

From your posts it sounds like you will end up with a large amount of assets to transfer.

I’ve handled my parents’ wills and hired it out. When the time comes whoever administers the estates can decide how to handle the work - DIY or hire a pro. As for the value, we may run through the value. We’re giving it away, and traveling a lot.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

We have two responsible adult children who get along great. Is it better to appoint only one as executor to avoid the hassle of them having to get together for decisions or name both. We already have wills but may update them. They live 30 minutes apart and both are married, one to a financial planner.

Having two executors is a pain. Both have to sign basically everything, some of which has to be notarized. If they live 30 minutes apart it wouldn't be quite so bad, as they could meet and do things in person, but it still just adds hassle for no benefit.

The better way is to set things up so the executor has as little to do as possible, and then either name one of them or do as GGG says and have a 3rd party handle it. Even really simple things like making sure registered accounts have beneficiaries named and consolidating your finances into as few accounts as possible as you get older don't take much time but they save a fair bit of hassle for the executor.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

I’ve handled my parents’ wills and hired it out. When the time comes whoever administers the estates can decide how to handle the work - DIY or hire a pro. As for the value, we may run through the value. We’re giving it away, and traveling a lot.

I’d talk with your kids about it.

If you have multiple executors now you have created a potential conflict where one wants to spend the money and the other doesn’t. If you have one executor then the other beneficiaries may get angry if the executor is wasting their inheritance on a professional.

Obviously you knowhow likely this type of conflict is to occur.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by GGG

I’d talk with your kids about it.

If you have multiple executors now you have created a potential conflict where one wants to spend the money and the other doesn’t. If you have one executor then the other beneficiaries may get angry if the executor is wasting their inheritance on a professional.

Obviously you knowhow likely this type of conflict is to occur.

When I did our parents’ none of my three siblings complained about any decisions including hiring a pro. It was my decision to make. Two of them wanted to buy our parents’ house. I made what I thought was the best decision after consideration of the financial considerations. I also gave my sister and her husband one years of free residency in the house for her being caregiver to our dad as per his wish. There were no conflicts. I also decided a plan for dispersing personal assets.