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Old 11-19-2019, 10:50 AM   #221
Flash Walken
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I guess I still remember when things with Gulutzan were obviously not working in year 2 and he should've been fired by the new year, but they stuck with him, missed the playoffs and then fired him anyway.

I suppose when the team you've been cheering for for 30 years has always sucked, what's another sucky season, but for me, I'm getting pretty tired of losing all the time.

There's nothing stopping you from bringing in a new coach and seeing if the core group fails again and then doing trades in the summer.

It's not like we're 5 games into a slide here, this has been going since the all star break.

Maybe it was the 4 months before the all star break where the team was playing 700 hockey that is the outlier here with this coach and not the 6 seasons of 500 hockey he has on the rest of his resume.
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Old 11-19-2019, 10:51 AM   #222
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The players are a problem.

Peters and his system are also a problem.

It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
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Old 11-19-2019, 10:54 AM   #223
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created a BP thread in case we want to keep this one about Johnny...

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=176636
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Old 11-19-2019, 11:27 AM   #224
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If you go that way then go for Darryl Sutter, just for the remainder of the season.

He's the kind of guy you can get a short term run under and was interested at the time of the Peters hire by the sound of it. And yes im still holding on to the fantasy of having him back behind the bench here.
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Old 11-19-2019, 11:28 AM   #225
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If you go that way then go for Darryl Sutter, just for the remainder of the season.

He's the kind of guy you can get a short term run under and was interested at the time of the Peters hire by the sound of it. And yes im still holding on to the fantasy of having him back behind the bench here.
He has that "consulting" gig with the Ducks still right? Wonder if that has an out clause.
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Old 11-19-2019, 11:39 AM   #226
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Does a few months of a broken-down Hamonic still hold that kind of value? I’m skeptical.

I think he might be worth a 2nd, maybe two 2nds at the very most if his play picks up. Any team but Winnipeg probably sees him as a pure rental, and in that context 1st rounders only typically go for premier players these days.
Doug Murray near the end of his career was traded for two 2nds. He could barely skate.

Guys like Hamonic command a 1st at the deadline, there’s lots of history to support it.
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Old 11-19-2019, 12:01 PM   #227
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It's hard to articulate this exactly, but IMO the issue is that this team's offensive identity is inextricably linked with Johnny Gaudreau. Whether he wants to be or not, he's always going to be 'the guy' [that stirs the drink], and it's just about impossible to change that.

For the most part, that's pretty fun from October-March, but it simply doesn't work past April. In the absence of something better, I completely understand the reluctance to move on from this kind of game breaking talent. We now have something better - we've struck gold in Tkachuk and Lindholm, and we need to hand the reins fully over to them.

30 other teams would love to have Gaudreau on their team, but very few of them would be willing to pay a substantial price for him. He's an elite complimentary player for a team with a strong identity (NAS, PIT), a marketable star for a team craving elite talent (CLB), or a great value contract for an overloaded cap crunch team that just doesn't have the right mix (PHI, TOR). There's a number of other teams that could fit the bill, but I think a mutually beneficial trade will have to involve lots of players, or maybe 3 teams.
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Old 11-19-2019, 12:04 PM   #228
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30 other teams would love to have Gaudreau on their team, but very few of them would be willing to pay a substantial price for him.
Respectfully disagree here. Philly would pay the premium as the money they'd make off of Gaudreau would be insane. He's their marketing dream.

Grew up nearby, as a Flyers fan, playing in front of a hockey mad market. His skill on display in that division?

$$$
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Old 11-19-2019, 12:14 PM   #229
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Doug Murray near the end of his career was traded for two 2nds. He could barely skate.

Guys like Hamonic command a 1st at the deadline, there’s lots of history to support it.
Each deadline seems to play out a little differently of late. Really depends on what the supply and demand is (which seems like an obvious statement). It also seems like teams are being a little more careful in trading picks (I have no proof of that, just my sense).
Timing of the deal is probably crucial. Might be a case where moving early gives you the max benefit, before other players hit the market.
I'm not convinced he gets you a 1st, but would like to think that's true.
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Old 11-19-2019, 12:24 PM   #230
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I would entertain the thought of parting ways with Johnny if a Brady Tkachuk was involved.

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Old 11-19-2019, 12:24 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
It's not like we're 5 games into a slide here, this has been going since the all star break.

Maybe it was the 4 months before the all star break where the team was playing 700 hockey that is the outlier here with this coach and not the 6 seasons of 500 hockey he has on the rest of his resume.
You can't just exclude the best section of 40 games of a 105 game sample and say "Look he's not good enough" .

Under Hartley, Peters, & Gulutzan when the team was committed to working hard and sticking to the system they looked good.

When they played lazy and uninspired hockey because they were sad, or the coach was too mean, or too nice, or now too mean again, they have looked bad.

I think at this point moving at least one of Gaudreau, Monahan, or Backlund will probably be required to shake it up.

As a whole the Flames under Peters sit 5th in the NHL with 130 points, and a . 619 points percentage. That would be a very harsh firing IMO.

If you break up the Flames under Peters into 20 game segments

2018/2019:

Game 1-20: 11-8-1 > .575 points percentage
Game 21-40: 13-4-3 > .725 points percentage
Game 41-60: 13-4-3 > .725 points percentage
Game 61--82: 13-9-0 > .591 points percentage

2019-2020

Game 1-20: 10-7-3 > 0.575 points percentage
Game 21-23: 0-3-0 > 0.000 points percentage

Peters has not had a 20 game segment as this team's coach where he's under a .575 points percentage. That is a 94 point pace over a full season, which isn't great but is a pretty good as your worst quarter of a season in his time here.

This is on the players and maybe the GM for not doing more to make sure a change happened in the offseason - not the coaching staff.

Last edited by SuperMatt18; 11-19-2019 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 11-19-2019, 12:37 PM   #232
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In my view coaches get too much of the blame and too much of the credit.
It's on the players, and more narrowly, on the best players.
How many chances do these guys get?

How much blame should the GM get for failing to deliver a coachable roster to 3 different coaches?
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Old 11-19-2019, 01:00 PM   #233
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How much blame should the GM get for failing to deliver a coachable roster to 3 different coaches?
Quite a bit - and even more if he doesn't make required changes this summer.
But coming off the season they did - there is nothing irrational to seeing if the team had another step to make, or if they would step back.
That's a perfectly reasonable way to handle things.
I'll keep beating this drum - but my view is that a common element that plagues bad organizations (of which the Flames are one) is constant change at the top. Stability matters. BT has shown me enough, and does enough right things, that I stick with him.
You can disagree.
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Old 11-19-2019, 01:06 PM   #234
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No, you go after cost controlled players. Like Konecny, Debrusk, Lias Andersen, get a package. Fill holes.
Sounds difficult to make during the season. Remember there is a salary cap.
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Old 11-19-2019, 01:06 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMatt18 View Post
You can't just exclude the best section of 40 games of a 105 game sample and say "Look he's not good enough" .

Under Hartley, Peters, & Gulutzan when the team was committed to working hard and sticking to the system they looked good.

When they played lazy and uninspired hockey because they were sad, or the coach was too mean, or too nice, or now too mean again, they have looked bad.

I think at this point moving at least one of Gaudreau, Monahan, or Backlund will probably be required to shake it up.

As a whole the Flames under Peters sit 5th in the NHL with 130 points, and a . 619 points percentage. That would be a very harsh firing IMO.

If you break up the Flames under Peters into 20 game segments

2018/2019:

Game 1-20: 11-8-1 > .575 points percentage
Game 21-40: 13-4-3 > .725 points percentage
Game 41-60: 13-4-3 > .725 points percentage
Game 61--82: 13-9-0 > .591 points percentage

2019-2020

Game 1-20: 10-7-3 > 0.575 points percentage
Game 21-23: 0-3-0 > 0.000 points percentage

Peters has not had a 20 game segment as this team's coach where he's under a .575 points percentage. That is a 94 point pace over a full season, which isn't great but is a pretty good as your worst quarter of a season in his time here.

This is on the players and maybe the GM for not doing more to make sure a change happened in the offseason - not the coaching staff.
I'm not even saying Peters is a bad coach.

I'm saying, things have obviously not been working the same way since the all star break and if a new coach gives yo uthe possibility of re-igniting your best players, this season, you do it.

I don't understand the lack of urgency here. This is year 2 of the 3 year window and the Flames are out of a playoff spot 22 games into the season.

In my opinion, when you're contending you friggin' go for it. Fire the coach, hire Guy as a trainer, serve only pepperoni pizzas in the lockerroom after practice, whatever it takes to get this group going.

In my opinion, Peters is not such a good coach that you can't find his like elsewhere should he be fired and you determine he was not the issue. Worst case scenario you fire peters, the flames miss, you trade Gaudreau or Monahan in the offseason without a doubt in your mind of where the problem is.

Best case scenario? You ignite the roster, have a barn burner of a second half and do some damage in the playoffs.

The time for sending a message to the roster that they can't play so badly that you'll get rid of the coach was two coaches ago. I don't want to light a contending season on fire to prove a point to my team's best players.

I want to win.
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Old 11-19-2019, 01:06 PM   #236
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Doug Murray near the end of his career was traded for two 2nds. He could barely skate.

Guys like Hamonic command a 1st at the deadline, there’s lots of history to support it.
You're going to use a lopsided trade from 7 seasons ago on which to base Hamonic's value?

I guess we'll see but I'm skeptical he returns a first. Some people were arguing Stone would be worth a 2nd rounder last year.

At last year's deadline, Montour returned a first+ for the Ducks. He is more valuable than Hamonic IMO, younger and had another year on his contract.
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Old 11-19-2019, 01:08 PM   #237
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How much blame should the GM get for failing to deliver a coachable roster to 3 different coaches?
It wasn't for lack of trying. Unless you think Kadri and Zucker wouldn't have moved the needle some.

Then again, "coachable"? How many of the present players, especially top 6 guys, were acquired by Treliving? Tkachuk and Lindholm are Treliving products and I think they have bought in best to Peters' (Lindholm is a bit surprising that way given his history).

If it's Johnny and Monahan who are uncoachable, it's not Treliving who "presented" Peters with them. They were drafted by Feaster (who can also claim Jankowski. Backlund was Sutter. Bennett you can sorta chalk up to Treliving but I suspect that was a scouting staff pick given his time on the job.

Treliving is certainly responsible for the D except Brodie and Gio and the goalies. But the young D is seen as a strength, and so is Rittich at least. He is also responsible for pretty much every other forward. To the extent they are uncoachable, fine.
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Old 11-19-2019, 01:14 PM   #238
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It would be idiotic to trade him during this season
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Old 11-19-2019, 01:18 PM   #239
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Unless Johnny turns into a man he’s not the kinda player you want look at Marty St Louis. The guy would lay it all out there. Johnny is an elite talent to doubt but he doesn’t seem to have the extra gear. Maybe he finds it?
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Old 11-19-2019, 01:25 PM   #240
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I think a good example of this kind of trade is when Philly traded Carter and Richards, each for a "king's ransom". The Flyers haven't done #### since that trade and Carter and Richards won two Stanley Cups with LA.
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