Johnny Gaudreau: Trade or Keep?

[Toonage]

This would be crazy of the Flames to fire Peters at this point. Not even a season removed from taking the Flames to their 2nd best finish? And Tre's 3rd coach in his tenure? Madness.

So, Cail MacLean coaches this team next week?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If the Flames fire Peters, may as well just have Gaudreau and Monahan hand-pick the next coach.

Or Gio I suppose. He has been Captain for how many coaches now?

I am not on the fire Peters train just yet, but it seems rather obvious Flames just haven't done a good job of hiring coaches over the years. Darryl Sutter was last Flames coach to get an NHL head coaching job after leaving here. The clowns to the North have three former coaches leading other teams (which of course signals a host of other problems with that franchise).

[Flash Walken]

Keeping a coach because firing him would put the gm in the hotseat is basically the worst possible reason to keep a guy in place.

The last time a bill Peter's coached team had any success was 11 years ago in the WHL.

I followed the canes a bit during his tenure, that team underperformed and the skilled players struggled to produce.

It's great that Calgary was 2nd in the west in his first year, but they had the doors blown off in the playoffs. meanwhile, his former team that didn't make the playoffs 4 years in a row suddenly finds themselves in the conference finals.

If you gave me the choice between selling the teams most skilled player or firing a coach with a decade track record of missing the playoffs ore getting bounced in 5 games in the first round, I fire the coach 10 times out of 10.

[Toonage]

^ I think he's earned the rest of this year at the very least but if the Flames are dead set against trading Gaudreau (entirely likely given ownership's handling of past fan favorites) then yeah he's likely gone which speaks to how much ownership must like Treliving.

[Flash Walken]

This is the guy the organization is willing to go to the wall for?



Really?

[Toonage]

If going to the wall is the remainder of this season, then yeah.

But honestly who knows. Like I said if they have no appetite for a Gaudreau trade then what else can you do? Cap is tight, only minor moves can be done, something would have to give if they wanted a mid season shake up.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Keeping a coach because firing him would put the gm in the hotseat is basically the worst possible reason to keep a guy in place.

The last time a bill Peter's coached team had any success was 11 years ago in the WHL.

I followed the canes a bit during his tenure, that team underperformed and the skilled players struggled to produce.

It's great that Calgary was 2nd in the west in his first year, but they had the doors blown off in the playoffs. meanwhile, his former team that didn't make the playoffs 4 years in a row suddenly finds themselves in the conference finals.

If you gave me the choice between selling the teams most skilled player or firing a coach with a decade track record of missing the playoffs ore getting bounced in 5 games in the first round, I fire the coach 10 times out of 10.

It's more about the environment you are creating.
This roster has already had a hand in two previous coaches being fired, with reports that some players expressed they weren't happy with those coaches.
At some point you have to look at the common variables, and ask if these players are truly committed or not.
In my view coaches get too much of the blame and too much of the credit.
It's on the players, and more narrowly, on the best players.
How many chances do these guys get?

[SportsJunky]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

This is the guy the organization is willing to go to the wall for?

Really?

Well that escalated quickly. Go to the wall? Who’s talking about dumping the coach? Not many. Everyone seems to be looking squarely at the players.

[Blaster86]

Outsider's take:


Keep Gaudreau
Trade Monahan

[robbie111]

The difference is the system from the all star break on. If you watch games from last year the Flames were scoring on transition and carrying the puck across the opponents blueline and maintaining possession of the puck and they also had lots of aggressive dmen joining the rushes and maintained lots of pressure on the forecheck. The key was keeping possession of the puck not dumping it in and losing possession of it. Since the all star game the Flames went to a dump and chase system which does not work for the smaller and slow players.



What the team needs to do is abandon dump and chase and go back to what worked so brilliantly last season before the all star game. The change in system is what led to the team being manhandled by the Avalanche in the playoffs.

[TheSquatch]

They can't currently make a tape-to-tape pass to get out of their own zone. Dump and chase is what's left.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

It's more about the environment you are creating.
This roster has already had a hand in two previous coaches being fired, with reports that some players expressed they weren't happy with those coaches.
At some point you have to look at the common variables, and ask if these players are truly committed or not.
In my view coaches get too much of the blame and too much of the credit.
It's on the players, and more narrowly, on the best players.
How many chances do these guys get?

Are you willing to burn a season to preserve the tenure of a coach who has never won anything ? If this was Brent Sutter or Darryl or Hartley or even Keenan that would be one thing.

But this is bill Peters we're talking about here.

What if those players didn't like those coaches because those coaches were bad?

[Toonage]

Can teams trade coaches? Maybe Boudreau & Peters just need a change of scenery?

[Roof-Daddy]

Last season up to the break the Flames were 41-16-7 with a +48 goal differential and on a 7 game winning streak.

Since then (including playoffs) they are 20-23-3 with a -2 goal differential.

That's ####ing weird man. They had totally sucked me in to thinking they might actually be elite and then they completely reverted back to the same middling team they've been for the better part of 30 years.

If it's the coach, get rid of him. I don't care if they were looking elite for the 1st 60~ games with him, if they've tuned him out there's no going back.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Are you willing to burn a season to preserve the tenure of a coach who has never won anything ? If this was Brent Sutter or Darryl or Hartley or even Keenan that would be one thing.

But this is bill Peters we're talking about here.

What if those players didn't like those coaches because those coaches were bad?

I'm certainly willing to listen to anyone who wants to present an argument that Hartley, Gulutzan or Peters are good coaches vs. an argument that replacing bad coaches is a bad idea.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

It's more about the environment you are creating.
This roster has already had a hand in two previous coaches being fired, with reports that some players expressed they weren't happy with those coaches.
At some point you have to look at the common variables, and ask if these players are truly committed or not.
In my view coaches get too much of the blame and too much of the credit.
It's on the players, and more narrowly, on the best players.
How many chances do these guys get?

Let's be honest here when it comes to discussing the Flames firing their head coaches over the last 20 years. What's the sign of a good head coach that gets unfairly fired? The sign is that he's rehired as a head coach by another team because he's widely recognized as a good coach. When is the last time a Flames ex-coach was hired by another team to coach an NHL team? We know the answer (only Darryl over two decades) and the fact is that this organization hasn't done a very good job finding the right coach. To be fair a lot of teams don't get it right but when you go 30 years and only find one good head coach (Darryl Sutter) your organization is doing a really, really bad job.

Let's examine how the Flames have gone about hiring their head coaches. Ken King pounces on the opportunity to hire Darryl Sutter (see above as good coaches get rehired). Darryl stepped down and gave the job to Playfair. No interviews. Darryl brings in his buddy Mike Keenan. No interviews. Darryl brings in his brother Brent. No interviews. Feaster I think had some interviews but the reality is they were window dressing and Hartley was his guy. Treliving conducts maybe the most extensive search for a head coach in Flames history and credit him for shortlisting Travis Green (the guy he should have hired) but he makes the mistake many make in his position which is pick a guy he has a history with in Gulutzan that was on no teams radar for good reason. Then of course he hires Peters without interviewing another candidate. It's pretty easy to see why this team has major issues finding good coaches. I think the success in Carolina post Peters is pretty damning of Peters as it seems like playing for him just isn't fun. As I said in another thread the Babcock coaching tree is really overrated from Babcock down. Very rigid in approach and a general inability to adapt.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Are you willing to burn a season to preserve the tenure of a coach who has never won anything ? If this was Brent Sutter or Darryl or Hartley or even Keenan that would be one thing.

But this is bill Peters we're talking about here.

What if those players didn't like those coaches because those coaches were bad?

Loaded question is loaded.
I'm willing to burn this season totally to gain clarity on what this team will do in the long-term.

[GioforPM]

Exactly who would people want to replace Peters with? I agree their hiring process has been less than stellar, but often the choices weren't great. At the moment I can't think of a good coach who's not working. It ain't Hartley, that's for sure.

Peters has this year and next on his contract. Treliving's history is to make a move after two years.

[cross16]

Is the "success" of Carolina post Peters really that damning?

They were under .500 until February and got red hot after in large part due to the play of Mrzaek (who is a significant upgrade over any goalie Peters ever had there), and a savy trade to pick up Niederreiter. Plus the added talents of Svechnikov, Hamiilton, Walmark etc.

Certainly not suggesting Peters can't be questioned I'm just not seeing the change really attributed to coaching. I'm one that doesn't believe coaching has that much of an impact, i'm just saying it's not like that Hurricanes team was the exact same and now this season they look pretty loaded with the likes of Necas/Svechnikov breaking out along with good adds in Dzingel and Huala.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Exactly who would people want to replace Peters with? I agree their hiring process has been less than stellar, but often the choices weren't great. At the moment I can't think of a good coach who's not working. It ain't Hartley, that's for sure.

Peters has this year and next on his contract. Treliving's history is to make a move after two years.

We do have evidence over the last decade of a couple of teams firing their head coaches mid-season and winning Stanley Cups but IMO that's the exception to the norm. I think the best approach is to stay the course and see this group and coaching staff to the end of the season. Peters should get the rest of this season to try and turn this around and if he can't or the players aren't good enough the GM will have plenty of options in the offseason to correct things as he sees fit. I just don't want to see the kind of panic moves that send organizations into death spirals and I worry if Treliving has the patience as he's made plenty of bold moves but this is not the time for bold moves.