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Old 11-25-2021, 02:13 PM   #3401
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Sir, I think if you ask any Oiler fan they will tell you that Draisaitl and McDavid don't in fact play together. Draisaitl has proven that he is capable of carrying his own line.

If that weren't true how would it be possible for each of them to get 4 points in a 5 goal game....with the only other forward to get points being the guy who played with McDavid...and Draisaitl....wait...this doesn't seem to make any sense....
Thanks for the response. Thatís a comical point youíve made. Iím sure McDavid and Draisaitl can carry their own lines but it appeared like they were on the ice together but I should in fairness watch again to see if itís otherwise.
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:14 PM   #3402
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Flames are:

7th in goals per game
1st in goals against per game
5th in shots per game
5th in shots against per game
6th in PP%
3rd in PK%
1st in goal differential at +30 in 20 games
Top 5 or better in just about every fancy stat there is

oiler fan: "Flames are getting lucky"

lol GTFO
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:16 PM   #3403
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Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan View Post
Tell me you donít watch the Flames without telling me you donít watch the Flames
Trying to lump in 6'0 tall Oliver Kylington with Gaudreau and Mangiapane was hilarious.
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:17 PM   #3404
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It doesn't change the fact that its unsustainable.
It does however change your gross hyperbole
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:18 PM   #3405
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Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy View Post
Flames are:

7th in goals per game
1st in goals against per game
5th in shots per game
5th in shots against per game
6th in PP%
3rd in PK%
1st in goal differential at +30 in 20 games
Top 5 or better in just about every fancy stat there is

oiler fan: "Flames are getting lucky"

lol GTFO
All of this with the worst travel schedule in the league thus far with a very high quality of opponent based on record this season
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:22 PM   #3406
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How many more shutouts do you think Markstrom will have this season?
hmmm i wonder which team is winning at an unsustainable rate

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Old 11-25-2021, 02:26 PM   #3407
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I mean, ALL success is unsustainable, if you make the window large enough.

Was Brodeur's dominance in New Jersey sustainable? He put up historic numbers, for over a decade. Is that because he was that much better than everyone else? Was he lucky? Or was it because the Devils played one of the stingiest defensive games we've ever seen?

It is impossible to say how much it was one and how much it was the other. But one thing is true: it was sustainable for a hell of a long time.
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:27 PM   #3408
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hmmm i wonder which team is winning at an unsustainable rate

Both.

But back to the original statement.

Which is that the Flames are a team that would really benefit from the playoffs being called tighter.

Gaudreau has never had a big playoffs. Mangi is small. Flames would be a team that would benefit more from tighter officiating in the playoffs than some other teams.

You would think some fans would acknowledge that.
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:33 PM   #3409
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Originally Posted by Oil Stain View Post
Sure. Why wouldn't I?

It's also completely unsustainable.
Statistically speaking, sure, the numbers are unsustainable. Every team goes through hot streaks where the numbers are higher/lower than what they will average out to be over a season. That won't be solely on Markstrom, but the team as a whole. Right now, both goalies are making good saves, but the buy in from the defense and even the forwards, has been to take pride in their own net above all else. They have been really good at limiting high percentage chances, clearing rebounds, and letting the goalies see everything. I am not saying that the goalies haven't been great, because they have been, but there were times within even the shutout games that they got bailed out by the team (and vice versa of course). Like, how many times have Markstrom or Vladar had highlights of the night?

As mentioned by others, both goalies have almost identical stats at the moment. Are both playing at Hasek levels? That would be quite a coincidence. And despite the shutouts, neither goalie is statistically the best in GAA or SA% (Markstrom is 5th and 6th).

Don't get me wrong, both goalies have been good, but they are not pulling in wins in spite of a poor team performance. They just happen to be firing on the same cylinders right now.
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:34 PM   #3410
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Originally Posted by Oil Stain View Post
Both.

But back to the original statement.

Which is that the Flames are a team that would really benefit from the playoffs being called tighter.

Gaudreau has never had a big playoffs. Mangi is small. Flames would be a team that would benefit more from tighter officiating in the playoffs than some other teams.

You would think some fans would acknowledge that.

Power plays and penalty kills are boring. I would way rather watch tight checking hockey even if it was slow and grinding then a two minute set play exercise.
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:34 PM   #3411
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Originally Posted by Oil Stain View Post
Both.

But back to the original statement.

Which is that the Flames are a team that would really benefit from the playoffs being called tighter.

Gaudreau has never had a big playoffs. Mangi is small. Flames would be a team that would benefit more from tighter officiating in the playoffs than some other teams.

You would think some fans would acknowledge that.
No. Your premise is wrong. The Flames are currently built for, and playing perfectly to, the way the game has been, and will be called and played in the playoffs.

We don't need it to change. And we don't want it to change.

They built the team to fit the environment. Unlike the Oilers, who have a flawed team, and are thus desperately trying to change the environment, in order to accommodate them.
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:37 PM   #3412
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Originally Posted by Oil Stain View Post
It's completely unsustainable.

Fans often ignore good chances when the goalie makes the save.
Luckily we live in an age where we don't have to ask fans, we can just look up the stats.

xGA60 8th
xGF60 11th
xGF% 6th

And the Flames have the 5th best HDCA60

Top ten defensive metrics don't fall into the category of "fans often ignore good chances when their goalie makes the save"
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:40 PM   #3413
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Oilers fans crying that Flames underlying numbers are too good therefore theyíll be less good later. Take that Flames fans!

Most controversial Flames discussion is around their #6 D position and getting more playing time for a top D prospect. For the Oilers, itís that their entire D suck, their underlying numbers suck, their goalies suck, and most of their forwards suck.

Loving this season so far
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:41 PM   #3414
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Originally Posted by Bingo View Post
Luckily we live in an age where we don't have to ask fans, we can just look up the stats.

xGA60 8th
xGF60 11th
xGF% 6th

And the Flames have the 5th best HDCA60

Top ten defensive metrics don't fall into the category of "fans often ignore good chances when their goalie makes the save"
The 5th best high danger chances against, per 60.

Vladar 4th in save percentage

Markstrom 6th in save percentage.

Sounds about right to me - not seeing any need for luck there.
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:45 PM   #3415
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Originally Posted by Enoch Root View Post
The 5th best high danger chances against, per 60.

Vladar 4th in save percentage

Markstrom 6th in save percentage.

Sounds about right to me - not seeing any need for luck there.
Is the Flames goal split sustainable? I'd argue not. I don't see the team being +125 by the end of the season.

But the Flames in almost any metric are playing an overall structured team game that suggests they are very much sustainable.

Maybe less shutouts for 4 and 5 goal wins on the horizon bringing the goaltending down a peg or two, but teams that sit top five in most metrics don't need any one element to save their bacon.

They'll have tough times like any team, but I really don't see any numbers that suggest they're going away.
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:46 PM   #3416
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Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan View Post
Tell me you don’t watch the Flames without telling me you don’t watch the Flames
Lol.

The thing is.. the way Sutter has them going day in, day out.. and the consistency. Theres nothing to suggest this style suddenly won't be sustainable. Its been a workmanlike product built on attention to detail more than a few guys playing out of their mind. And it's built on rolling four lines and keeping every one fresh and committed to the same goal. It's teams that go on runs but show deep lapses in between that are more susceptible to things falling off, cause they show two extremes.

There's been no extremes with this group this year. They've either been steady and in games, or running away with games. Anywhere in between those two posts. They haven't had their show run by arguable any one team. And the odd time they've been outplayed, they've stuck to their defensive details still to help make it possible for the goalies to do their jobs.

Now tell me whether that, or how the Oilers are going about succeededing seems more sustainable.

I'd gamble on the systems driven group with top tier goaltending over a group that lives and dies by one, maybe two guys, and its PP.

Oilers fans deep down know this to be true based on how they've fizzled out the last two post-seasons, which is exactly why they are attacking what the Flames are doing this year and trying to paint it as unsustainable with the same brush as how their team's methods have faltered, when really its not comparable whatsoever.

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Old 11-25-2021, 02:47 PM   #3417
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Originally Posted by Oil Stain View Post
Both.

But back to the original statement.

Which is that the Flames are a team that would really benefit from the playoffs being called tighter.

Gaudreau has never had a big playoffs. Mangi is small. Flames would be a team that would benefit more from tighter officiating in the playoffs than some other teams.

You would think some fans would acknowledge that.
Do you not understand that the question itself is completely rhetorical?

First off.

What is "tighter officiating"? Does it include calling all the dives when McDavid wilts? Because that is part of why calls aren't made.

Secondly.

What team wouldn't benefit from more powerplays?

Maybe those teams with the integrity to NOT dive for calls while moaning and complaining about every missed call and manipulating anyone they can to join in their warped messaging that it throttles their talent and in turn the entire talent of hockey.

When you have no shame, you have no integrity.

The Oilers enterprise has repeatedly proven that it is immune to shame.
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:49 PM   #3418
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Is the Flames goal split sustainable? I'd argue not. I don't see the team being +125 by the end of the season.

But the Flames in almost any metric are playing an overall structured team game that suggests they are very much sustainable.

Maybe less shutouts for 4 and 5 goal wins on the horizon bringing the goaltending down a peg or two, but teams that sit top five in most metrics don't need any one element to save their bacon.

They'll have tough times like any team, but I really don't see any numbers that suggest they're going away.
Completely agree - it is very unlikely that they continue to paly at a 1.5 GPG differential.

However, that does not change the fact that the reason that they have a 1.5 GPG differential currently, is because they have been dominating teams 5 on 5 (as opposed to having hot goaltending).

I do not expect them to keep dominating at the pace they have been - that isn't happening. But the way they play is not going to change. The way they pressure the puck all over the ice, the way they are transitioning, and defending the transition, are not going to change. They just won't be AS dominant at it.
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Old 11-25-2021, 02:59 PM   #3419
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There are two elements to scoring goals - quality and quantity of shots. While there's no perfect way to quantify quality (because of cross-ice passes, breakaways, crease clearing etc), xG is one. One thing that helps teams be strong in preventing quality, is playing with a lead. Not going to give up a ton of breakaways if you've got a lead and don't need to press for a goal. So xG, adjusted for score, is a decent indicator of the quality you give up. But not all goals are quality goals, so sometimes just reducing shot volume is sufficient. I'd say a good defensive team is ideally strong in both these areas - prevent volume and prevent quality.

Comparing the top five teams in 5v5 goals against, plus Edmonton:

Calgary is currently 2nd in score-adjusted 5v5 xGA/60 (1.97), and 4th in 5v5 SA/60 (28.19).They've allowed 20 goals (1.26 GA/60) with a 95.55% SV% (1st)

Winnipeg is 15th in score-adjusted 5v5 xGA/60 (2.27) and 11th in 5v5 SA/60 (29.41)
They've allowed 26 goals (1.67 GA/60) with a 94.31% SV% (2nd)

Carolina is 20th in score-adjusted 5v5 xGA/60 (2.39) and 7th in 5v5 SA/60 (28.77)
They've allowed 23 goals (1.69 GA/60) with a 94.13% SV% (3rd)

Florida is 12th in score-adjusted 5v5 xGA/60 (2.23) and 9th in 5v5 SA/60 (29.19)
They've allowed 27 goals (1.79 GA/60) with a 93.88% SV% (4th)

Washington is 4th in score-adjusted 5v5 xGA/60 (1.99) and 1st in 5v5 SA/60 (26.37)
They've allowed 30 goals (1.83 GA/60) with a 92.97% SV% (8th)

Edmonton is 16th in score-adjusted 5v5 xGA/60 (2.3) and 26th in 5v5 SA/60 (32.41)
They've allowed 44 goals (2.88 GA/60 - 29th) with a 91.13% SV% (27th)

There are three teams which currently sit top five in Score-adjusted 5v5 xGA and 5v5 shots against:

Boston
Calgary
Washington

If the Flames 5v5 SV% dropped to .933 - which would sit 8th place in the league, they would have allowed 30 goals instead of 20 (1.88 GA/60). Which would still be good for 5th best in the NHL - behind three teams which have had probably better goaltending relative to their defensive play, and the Capitals who have played about as good as Calgary. I would say Washington's a pretty good team, regardless of whether they're first in the standings or not.


But Oil Stain can tell me more about how Markstrom has been Hasek.
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Old 11-25-2021, 03:32 PM   #3420
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You think he'll put up another 5 or 10?
You think your three will have one all year total? Only 63 more tries.
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