The guy may say the occasional thing that makes sense, but his epistemology makes no sense. He doesn't believe in objective truth. He defines truth as being what is of greatest utility in terms of survival. I can't even begin to think how this would even be a useful conception of truth, let alone a 'true' one.
I find it difficult to take any of his conclusions seriously if this is how he sees the world. It speaks to someone who would easily allow bias into their analysis.
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The guy may say the occasional thing that makes sense, but his epistemology makes no sense. He doesn't believe in objective truth. He defines truth as being what is of greatest utility in terms of survival. I can't even begin to think how this would even be a useful conception of truth, let alone a 'true' one.
I find it difficult to take any of his conclusions seriously if this is how he sees the world. It speaks to someone who would easily allow bias into their analysis.
I mean I can kind of buy it but he sucks at expressing it. Someone like Richard Joyce does a much better job of explaining the evolutionary aspects of meta-ethics than Peterson does.
It’s pretty weird how social dysfunction and inter-generational hits minorities far more often but isn’t... you know... because of racism.
Actually, some minorities have lower rates of social dysfunction. Asian Canadians have lower rates of out of wedlock childbirth, violent crime, and substance abuse than European Canadians. And that's despite a long history of bigotry against them. Same with Jews. Explain that through the prism of racism.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
Actually, some minorities have lower rates of social dysfunction. Asian Canadians have lower rates of out of wedlock childbirth, violent crime, and substance abuse than European Canadians. And that's despite a long history of bigotry against them. Same with Jews. Explain that through the prism of racism.
Interesting, links?
And, getting back to Peterson, I’m still curious how you weighed in on the content of a book review without having read the book it’s reviewing.
You really should read 12 rules, you’d be enlightened.
Actually, some minorities have lower rates of social dysfunction. Asian Canadians have lower rates of out of wedlock childbirth, violent crime, and substance abuse than European Canadians. And that's despite a long history of bigotry against them. Same with Jews. Explain that through the prism of racism.
Easy. Systemic racism.
Indian Act and all it entails: Residential Schools. Reserve System. The pass system. Cultural genocide.
Slavery. Jim Crow laws. Redlining. Stop and Frisk. The war on drugs.
Systemic racism. Say it with me Cliff. S y s t e m i c.
And, getting back to Peterson, I’m still curious how you weighed in on the content of a book review without having read the book it’s reviewing.
You really should read 12 rules, you’d be enlightened.
If you look at the link I posted earlier it contains the information on Asian performance as well. The sons and daughters of immigrants perform better than whites but once looking at Asian children born from citizen Mothers they perform equal to whites.
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If you look at the link I posted earlier it contains the information on Asian performance as well. The sons and daughters of immigrants perform better than whites but once looking at Asian children born from citizen Mothers they perform equal to whites.
As an Asian daughter of immigrants I'll tell you why this is the case. It's all about sacrifice. Asian immigrant parents sacrificed everything for their children and even in a way accept assimilation and marginalization. My parents owned a convenient store. They never took holidays or time off. They worked 14 days all for me and my brother. My aunt and uncle hated each others guts but wouldn't divorce until their kids turned 20 to ensure their success. My Canadian-born generation are not making these sacrifices for our children and perhaps that will hurt them in the long run.
Also Asians immigrants embraced racism. I know this sounds strange but they accepted and embrace racism and use it as motivation. Growing up here, many times my mother would say, "we live in a White mans country and have to accept everything that comes with that". We have to assimilate to be Canadians and work twice as hard as them to achieve equal status. Asians have assimilated to make it easier for Canadians. Why is it that most Asians you know have an English name? Why is it that your Asian co-worker is quiet and causes the least trouble? Why is it that most convenient stores, coffee shops and fast food joints are run by Asian immigrants? To be less hated and to 'serve' Canadians. Asians immigrants will do anything to be non-confrontational and accept that they are 2nd class.
But those kids (like myself) who gained from their parents sacrifice, we want more. We want our kids in private schools. We want to make good money and take vacations. Our kids are now equal whereas their grandparents never thought they were equal. And to be honest, I don't want to be a 'tiger mom' and have my daughter locked in the house and just study. I want her to be more well-rounded but in GGGs report, I would score a 90% and she would score a 80%. But she'll be more well-rounded than me.
So I always ask, what are we measuring? Education? Social Status? Adaptability? Money?
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Blacks would have been denied the bank loans necessary to open up a convenience store. Look up redlining. Same story for indigenous here in Canada up until recently.
Indigenous in Canada did not have access to the same education system. They were not allowed to leave their reserves without a pass from an Indian agent. And so on and so forth.
It's not an apples to apples comparison between immigrants, jews, blacks, indigenous, etc.
Blacks would have been denied the bank loans necessary to open up a convenience store. Look up redlining. Same story for indigenous here in Canada up until recently.
Indigenous in Canada did not have access to the same education system. They were not allowed to leave their reserves without a pass from an Indian agent. And so on and so forth.
It's not an apples to apples comparison between immigrants, jews, blacks, indigenous, etc.
I enjoyed your MLK videos above and he was right then. But I'm not so sure now.
My parents never got a loan for a convenient store. They both worked cleaning jobs first and saved up to buy one. Of course in the 1980 a convenient store cost maybe 10K. It's different now but people still manage.
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Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire
I enjoyed your MLK videos above and he was right then. But I'm not so sure now.
My parents never got a loan for a convenient store. They both worked cleaning jobs first and saved up to buy one. Of course in the 1980 a convenient store cost maybe 10K. It's different now but people still manage.
A culturally ingrained work ethic and a willingness to assimilate sound like they were big keys to your parents success. I don't deny their resilience or the obstacles they faced.
Their story and their obstacles are DIFFERENT from blacks and DIFFERENT from indigenous in a myriad of ways. To deny the difference leads to oversimplification of a complex issue and leads to all sorts of stereotypes, prejudices and racism against these groups.
Simple comparisons without a deeper examination into colonization, and systemic racism is how people start thinking the problem is inherent laziness or whatever dumb racist stereotype they've been brainwashed into thinking.
As an Asian daughter of immigrants I'll tell you why this is the case. It's all about sacrifice. Asian immigrant parents sacrificed everything for their children and even in a way accept assimilation and marginalization. My parents owned a convenient store. They never took holidays or time off. They worked 14 days all for me and my brother. My aunt and uncle hated each others guts but wouldn't divorce until their kids turned 20 to ensure their success. My Canadian-born generation are not making these sacrifices for our children and perhaps that will hurt them in the long run.
Also Asians immigrants embraced racism. I know this sounds strange but they accepted and embrace racism and use it as motivation. Growing up here, many times my mother would say, "we live in a White mans country and have to accept everything that comes with that". We have to assimilate to be Canadians and work twice as hard as them to achieve equal status. Asians have assimilated to make it easier for Canadians. Why is it that most Asians you know have an English name? Why is it that your Asian co-worker is quiet and causes the least trouble? Why is it that most convenient stores, coffee shops and fast food joints are run by Asian immigrants? To be less hated and to 'serve' Canadians. Asians immigrants will do anything to be non-confrontational and accept that they are 2nd class.
But those kids (like myself) who gained from their parents sacrifice, we want more. We want our kids in private schools. We want to make good money and take vacations. Our kids are now equal whereas their grandparents never thought they were equal. And to be honest, I don't want to be a 'tiger mom' and have my daughter locked in the house and just study. I want her to be more well-rounded but in GGGs report, I would score a 90% and she would score a 80%. But she'll be more well-rounded than me.
So I always ask, what are we measuring? Education? Social Status? Adaptability? Money?
I suspect you're unwilling to stare the hard, hard reality of social dysfunction and inter-generational poverty in the face.
It would be a much better world if the reason for inter-generational poverty among Canadian Natives was bigoted white bosses who won't hire a Native welder or accountant. All we'd have to do is educate or shame Canadians out of being bigots and the problem would be solved.
But the problem is Natives aren't getting the accreditation to become welders or accountants in the first place. And the reason they aren't getting accreditation to become welders and accountants in the first place is because they don't finish school. And the reason they don't finish school is because they're raised in neglectful or toxic homes.
For too many Natives in Canada, by the time they're 12 or so, the damage is done. And the most comprehensive and well-meaning social programs in the world can't compensate for a neglected or toxic childhood. The only way to break the chain is to take children out of the toxic environment at a young age, but that's a case where the cure is as bad as the disease.
That's the profoundly depressing reality. If only the main issue was really bigotry.
Thank you for proving my point for me.
The First Nations that are the worst off in this country are residential school survivors or direct descendants of residential school survivors. The problem has become intergenerational dysfunction.
The problem began because of government assimilation policies. You know- systemic racism.
Segregated to reserves often on the worst parcels of land with no economic or resource base-- government policy (ie systemic racism) in order to dispossess them of their land.
Indian agents and the pass system- government policy (ie systemic racism) that excluded generations from being a part of the economy.
On reserve children receive thousands of dollars less per student in funding. This is happening today.
Federal funding gap disadvantages First Nations students, PBO says
Report by Parliament's budget office finds on-reserve schools underfunded by thousands of dollars per student
There is a direct correlation between education outcomes and standard of living, including "health, happiness and community engagement."
First Nations children "have been deprived of that for a very long time and I think that needs to change," he said.
Here is another example:
Canada discriminates against children on reserves, tribunal rules
On-reserve child welfare system receives up to 38% less funding than elsewhere
The federal government discriminates against First Nation children on reserves by failing to provide the same level of child welfare services that exist elsewhere, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal has ruled.
A culturally ingrained work ethic and a willingness to assimilate sound like they were big keys to your parents success. I don't deny their resilience or the obstacles they faced.
Their story and their obstacles are DIFFERENT from blacks and DIFFERENT from indigenous in a myriad of ways. To deny the difference leads to oversimplification of a complex issue and leads to all sorts of stereotypes, prejudices and racism against these groups.
Simple comparisons without a deeper examination into colonization, and systemic racism is how people start thinking the problem is inherent laziness or whatever dumb racist stereotype they've been brainwashed into thinking.
I'm not denying that there aren't differences but why are there differences, and differences by what measures?
Can we improve work ethic in groups? Is the measurement only success in education or success in other fields like arts, music and sports.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire
The guy may say the occasional thing that makes sense, but his epistemology makes no sense. He doesn't believe in objective truth. He defines truth as being what is of greatest utility in terms of survival. I can't even begin to think how this would even be a useful conception of truth, let alone a 'true' one.
I find it difficult to take any of his conclusions seriously if this is how he sees the world. It speaks to someone who would easily allow bias into their analysis.
Only mathematicians deal with truths, everything else is fuzzy data paired with subjective reasoning, the whole field of medicine is essentially guesswork because they're dealing with incredibly complex systems and have to use bad data (ie - there's a whole of guessing that takes place between "I have a bad cough" and having a definitive cause for the cough). When you get into the world of clinical psychology you're so far removed from any definitive version of truth that you have to define it yourself and having your version of the truth be orientated towards positive results seems like a pretty reasonable stance for someone in that position to take.
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Only mathematicians deal with truths, everything else is fuzzy data paired with subjective reasoning, the whole field of medicine is essentially guesswork because they're dealing with incredibly complex systems and have to use bad data (ie - there's a whole of guessing that takes place between "I have a bad cough" and having a definitive cause for the cough). When you get into the world of clinical psychology you're so far removed from any definitive version of truth that you have to define it yourself and having your version of the truth be orientated towards positive results seems like a pretty reasonable stance for someone in that position to take.
Probably, the most sensible post in this thread.
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"An idea is always a generalization, and generalization is a property of thinking. To generalize means to think." Georg Hegel
“To generalize is to be an idiot.” William Blake
I'm not denying that there aren't differences but why are there differences, and differences by what measures?
Can we improve work ethic in groups? Is the measurement only success in education or success in other fields like arts, music and sports.
Apologies for quoting myself. I just wanted to add that I really appreciate these discussions were having. I think we should be open and discuss some concerns within groups.
We should be able to say, let's help Indigenous peoples work ethic or Asians social awkwardness without being accused of racism. I understand that saying Indigenous peoples need a mechanism to integrate into Canadian society (like immigrants) is a non-starter because they reject the notion of a Canadian society on their land. But if that is the case then there is no solution is there?
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Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire
What are the foundations of a fair and honourable relationship between the Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people of Canada?
There can be no peace or harmony unless there is justice.
We held 178 days of public hearings, visited 96 communities, consulted dozens of experts, commissioned scores of research studies, reviewed numerous past inquiries and reports. Our central conclusion can be summarized simply:#The main policy direction, pursued for more than 150 years, first by colonial then by Canadian governments, has been wrong.
Successive governments have tried - sometimes intentionally, sometimes in ignorance - to absorb Aboriginal people into Canadian society, thus eliminating them as distinct peoples. Policies pursued over the decades have undermined - and almost erased - Aboriginal cultures and identities.
This is assimilation. It is a denial of the principles of peace, harmony and justice for which this country stands - and it has failed.
