E-scooters are coming

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

They had to actually remove risk mitigation factors from the Alberta Traffic Safety Act in order to even get escooters here. I think it's a bit of a bad idea to allow them on sidewalks. Even bike paths/ walk ways seem crazy dangerous around Prince's Island and Eau Claire. There will always be wobblers around so you really want them to buzz through a crowd of people at 20 km's/hr? And we will always have dummies who don't follow the rules. You want to hire scooter cops? Build scooter lanes?



I'm sure there will be a study that says the benefit to Calgarians is super massive. So I'll wait for the report. But so far I don't think there is much benefit other than it's kind of fun and it opens up more lunch opportunities.

So you don't care about the actual data or information, you just don't like them and want them gone period.

That's fine. Just be honest about it instead of exaggerating things like "public health concern" and "very costly to a publicly funded health system" and leading people on a wild goose chase of a conversation.

Again, making these kind of judgements against the first month of a 16-month pilot project is completely self-serving. The lack of data should give you pause, and even if it doesn't, the context of the data collected so far should.

Where do most e-scooter injuries happen worldwide? The road. So we banned them on the road!
A huge contributing factor to the injuries in Calgary? Children. Which are not allowed.
What do all the studies say? That with more experience, the rate of injury drops considerably.

Or just go with the confirmation bias. Feels good man.

[PepsiFree]

As far as the scooters requiring a significant benefit to justify the risk, I'm not sure that's even relevant.

Why are motorcycles legal? They're risky from an injury per ride standpoint, they actually kill people, and the benefits are negligible compared to a car which is much much safer.

It's because we (thankfully) demand a pretty high threshold to accept our government banning perfectly reasonable things in the name of our own well being.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

So you don't care about the actual data or information, you just don't like them and want them gone period.

That's fine. Just be honest about it instead of exaggerating things like "public health concern" and "very costly to a publicly funded health system" and leading people on a wild goose chase of a conversation.

Again, making these kind of judgements against the first month of a 16-month pilot project is completely self-serving. The lack of data should give you pause, and even if it doesn't, the context of the data collected so far should.

Where do most e-scooter injuries happen worldwide? The road. So we banned them on the road!
A huge contributing factor to the injuries in Calgary? Children. Which are not allowed.
What do all the studies say? That with more experience, the rate of injury drops considerably.

Or just go with the confirmation bias. Feels good man.

So we've banned them on the road, made them safer in every way you see possible, and yet there are still an unusually high number of injuries. Weird. And so, after a seven month lay off, next year people will automatically be back to experienced and competent riding? The rules you see as helping with safety...helmets, single riders, older riders are mostly policy, not law.

The studies all say that they're really dangerous. Some say more so than all other forms of transportation. The data we get from our own experience is already out there. We don't need to wait 16 months to find out. We're not going to be any different than other places that have had escooters for 2 years.

My mistake is saying that the cost to health care is high. You win. The few million it will cost to accommodate 145 e/r visits a month is pretty insignificant in the big picture.

I have no agenda. It's just dumb to say we need data! when we have data. Lots of it. So far we're on par with everyone else. It's more dangerous than other forms of transportation and it seems kind of dumb to allow riding on sidewalks while we wait for people to become expert scooterers.

Why are motorcycles legal? They're risky from an injury per ride standpoint, they actually kill people, and the benefits are negligible compared to a car which is much much safer.

They're not as dangerous as scooters though...

It referred to a recent study by Portland's Bureau of Transportation, which found the e-scooter injury rate to be 2.2 accidents per 10,000 miles — much higher than the national average for motorbikes (0.05 per 10,000 miles) and cars (0.1 per 10,000)

Where do most e-scooter injuries happen worldwide? The road. So we banned them on the road!

Well the CDC is studying the issue, They've already found out that most accidents don't happen via car incidents...

“There’s a perception that scooter-related injuries occur at night. Well that’s not true,” Taylor said. “Our study will show they occur during all times of the day. People may also perceive there’s typically a car involved. But our study finds most of the time the rider may hit a bump in the road or they simply lose their balance.”

I think this is an issue for me because you can't ride bikes on sidewalks for reasons everyone agrees are obvious. So it makes no sense to allow 20 km/hr scooters on sidewalks. I'm not sure why they can't follow the same rules as bikes.



It also bugs me that it's being advertised as an environmentally friendly solution when quite obviously it is not.

[Fuzz]

Just saw a guy run a red crossing the LRT tracks...I wonder how long before someone loses that race? Probably tempting to try to squeeze through lights considering you are paying for it by the minute.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Just saw a guy run a red crossing the LRT tracks...I wonder how long before someone loses that race? Probably tempting to try to squeeze through lights considering you are paying for it by the minute.

That seems pretty dangerous. I am surprised they made it across the tracks, I thought the scooter wheels would have gotten caught in the groove and cause the guy to bail.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Wormius

That seems pretty dangerous. I am surprised they made it across the tracks, I thought the scooter wheels would have gotten caught in the groove and cause the guy to bail.

It was a Lime, so it has the front suspension. Probably not an issue if you keep your weight back. But dumb. So dumb.

[Weitz]

Its literally no issue going across the tracks.

Is jaywalking across 7th really any different than peds/cyclists that do it all the time?

Funny enough though I only know 2 people who have gotten jaywalking tickets in Calgary and they were both at 7th ave.

[TheSutterDynasty]

So when are we starting a CP GoFundMe for OMG!WTF!'s bubble?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

So you don't care about the actual data or information, you just don't like them and want them gone period.

The "data" you have provided is complete garbage, so you don't really have that as a good defence.

For instance, this:

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I would say no, it has not been determined a public health concern, but the stats do show the rate is abnormal. How abnormal? About the same rate as a motorcycle according to a comparison between the numbers here and here.

First link: Straight forward numbers. Study says 14.3 injuries per 100,000 trips on a scooter.

You claimed that is "about the same rate as a motorcycle", using the second link - over a decade old, btw. And what does it say? 63,312 injuries (fatal and non-fatal) over 580 million trips That breaks down to about 10.9 per 100,000.

That isn't "about the same". Not by a long shot, and it means that either you just suck at math (charitable), or you are willing to basically make crap up to be 'right' (probable).

I mean, I would agree with you that the scooters don't qualify as a "public health hazard", but given your 'data' is junk, your arguments are no less rooted in pure emotional rhetoric than OMG's is.


And as others have mentioned, the fact that these things are pay per time rather than pay per distance is not helping, since it encourages people to do stupid things. That's something Lime and Bird really need to address.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Well the CDC is studying the issue, They've already found out that most accidents don't happen via car incidents...

“There’s a perception that scooter-related injuries occur at night. Well that’s not true,” Taylor said. “Our study will show they occur during all times of the day. People may also perceive there’s typically a car involved. But our study finds most of the time the rider may hit a bump in the road or they simply lose their balance.”

Ok, but doesn't having it on the sidewalk actually help with this too? Sidewalks are going to have fewer random bumps and potholes than roads and presumably you're moving more slowly...

Of course the flip side to that is that most of the data we have is from places they're allowed on the road, right? Which means that the Calgary outcomes could be different (not necessarily better). You're obviously going to have way fewer scooters crashing into cars and way more scooters crashing into pedestrians (and maybe bikes) with this system.

I'm not saying that's better or worse, but just saying "elsewhere most accidents happen on the road so we ban them on the road, problem solved" doesn't make much sense, unless you can show that restricting use to the sidewalks in other places has led to fewer accidents. You're now increasing sidewalk traffic, which is a smaller space to avoid collisions and still has traffic of varying speeds. Intuitively, that sounds to me like it'd lead to more accidents, but less severe ones on average (not as likely to end up in an ER as scraped and bruised).

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Ok, but doesn't having it on the sidewalk actually help with this too? Sidewalks are going to have fewer random bumps and potholes than roads and presumably you're moving more slowly...

Of course the flip side to that is that most of the data we have is from places they're allowed on the road, right? Which means that the Calgary outcomes could be different (not necessarily better).

I guess having them on the sidewalk doesn't help very much since our first month of scooting is pretty much average to above average in number of injuries,

I wonder if maybe a 3 wheel scooter would make a difference. It would be so much less cool though.

My thing is I don't care what happens to riders at all. I'm as happy as anyone to let people do whatever they want. I just don't think we allow them on sidewalks. You should not be allowed to risk other people.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

I guess having them on the sidewalk doesn't help very much since our first month of scooting is pretty much average to above average in number of injuries,

I wonder if maybe a 3 wheel scooter would make a difference. It would be so much less cool though.

My thing is I don't care what happens to riders at all. I'm as happy as anyone to let people do whatever they want. I just don't think we allow them on sidewalks. You should not be allowed to risk other people.

as long as I can go full American and sue the scooter company when some guy drives into me when I'm on the sidewalk, it's all good.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

I guess having them on the sidewalk doesn't help very much since our first month of scooting is pretty much average to above average in number of injuries,

I wonder if maybe a 3 wheel scooter would make a difference. It would be so much less cool though.

My thing is I don't care what happens to riders at all. I'm as happy as anyone to let people do whatever they want. I just don't think we allow them on sidewalks. You should not be allowed to risk other people.

How many people have been injured from collisions with a scooter?

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

How many people have been injured from collisions with a scooter?

Why can't you ride your bike on a sidewalk?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Why can't you ride your bike on a sidewalk?

Beats me, people do it all the time. Even I do it on the last block-stretch before my office.

Care to answer my question?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Why can't you ride your bike on a sidewalk?

I always thought this had more to do with car interference at intersections (stop sign intersections). You pop out onto the road from a sidewalk at a decent bike pace and you’re looking to get bonked by a car (since it’s gotta be less than 5% or drivers who actually come to a complete stop prior to the stop line).

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Beats me, people do it all the time. Even I do it on the last block-stretch before my office.

Care to answer my question?

Sure. My answer is the same as yours..."Duuh I dunno."



But are you sure the reason you can't ride a bike on the sidewalk is because it's dangerous?

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

How many people have been injured from collisions with a scooter?

This seems like the real important number and even better, how many people have been injured by collisions with a scooter who weren't at fault.

Let scooter riders and people who get themselves run over by scooter riders continue their head cracking lifestyle.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Sure. My answer is the same as yours..."Duuh I dunno."



But are you sure the reason you can't ride a bike on the sidewalk is because it's dangerous?

If you don't know how many collisions there have been between scooters and people, then you can't even start to quantify the risk, so saying "you shouldn't be able to risk other people" is meaningless.

I know it's just another goal post, but the amount of goal posts you move to without anything substantial to back it up is crazy.

Just say you're a wiener who hates scooters and release me from this pain. I have another life to live! I have definitions of idioms to look up!

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Sure. My answer is the same as yours..."Duuh I dunno."



But are you sure the reason you can't ride a bike on the sidewalk is because it's dangerous?

For the rider. Not pedestrians. Or else we’d have separate bike lanes in every park.