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Old 10-10-2018, 01:18 PM   #1
Jetfire
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Default Andrew Berkshire's Top 20 Players at Each Position (Over the Past 3 Seasons)

Haven't seen mention of these anywhere as each article has been released over the past few days, so I thought I'd put them all in one place. I found them to be interesting and pretty well thought out assessments, with Berkshire using stats across a span of 3 seasons to come up with his rankings of the most complete players at each position. Some pleasant and pretty high Flame inclusions, as well as a notable omission in Monahan.

Also, for those interested, he did an AMA on Reddit today too:
https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comm...berkshire_ama/

Here's his player rankings below.

Goalies (Smith at 11):
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...three-seasons/

Centres:
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...three-seasons/

Left Wingers (Tkachuk at 17, Gaudreau at 6):
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...three-seasons/

Right Wingers:
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...three-seasons/

Defencemen 40-21 (Brodie at 32, Hamilton at 25):
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...seasons-40-21/

Defencemen 20-1 (Giordano at 4):
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...three-seasons/
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Old 10-10-2018, 01:22 PM   #2
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No Monahan?

What a load of cr@p!

Even if he's only #20 he should be there.
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Old 10-10-2018, 01:23 PM   #3
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It drives me crazy to see Leon Draisaitl continuously classified as a centre. He may play a considerable amount of time down the middle, but his offence is a product of playing on the wing. If he spent an entire season centring the second line he would not come close to touching lists like these.
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Old 10-10-2018, 01:24 PM   #4
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Yeah, I'd definitely have Monahan on my own list, somewhere in the 15-20 range. To be fair, when asked in his Reddit AMA, it doesn't seem like Monahan missed his list by much, and he also called Backlund his most underrated center in the league.
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Old 10-10-2018, 01:29 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetfire View Post
Yeah, I'd definitely have Monahan on my own list, somewhere in the 15-20 range. To be fair, when asked in his Reddit AMA, it doesn't seem like Monahan missed his list by much, and he also called Backlund his most underrated center in the league.
And calls Monahan his most overrated centre. Just bonkers.
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Old 10-10-2018, 01:32 PM   #6
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He doesn't like Monahan's defensive game is the main thing he said over on the AMA.
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Old 10-10-2018, 01:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
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He doesn't like Monahan's defensive game is the main thing he said over on the AMA.
Don’t need one when you keep the opposition digging pucks out of their own net.
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Old 10-10-2018, 01:41 PM   #8
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Discussing Andrew Berkshire's opinions is like discussing the opinions of a way below average poster from HFBoards. They're terrible and there's absolutely no reason to do it.
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:09 PM   #9
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Berkshire's lists aren't the product of his "opinions". They're the result of mounds and mounds of data, which occasionally produce results that surprise even him. The only opinion that goes into it are what stats to focus on, and how to weight defensive impact vs. offensive impact.

Even if you changed the latter, it wouldn't make a massive difference to the people on the list - mostly it'd just shuffle the order a bit. Which, feel free to do; even if you think a certain player should be 7th instead of 14th or 15th instead of top ten, these players are the best ones at their respective positions.
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:20 PM   #10
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I was going to make a list of the centres that have more goals than Monahan over the last 3 years to talk about how this list was nonsense to leave Monahan off as only Crosby, Tavares, Malkin, Seguin and Pavelski do. However, I realized that Pavelski was left off the list. What the ####?

If you don't have Pavelski as a top 20 centre due to your data analyzing method, it's time to look at new ways to analyze because you ####ed up.
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:25 PM   #11
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"This player I think is really good is not where I think he should be ranked therefore the ranking is invalid" opinions are among the most obnoxious things in sports fandom.
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:28 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague View Post
"This player I think is really good is not where I think he should be ranked therefore the ranking is invalid" opinions are among the most obnoxious things in sports fandom.
Good thing the above opinion is framed as "This player I think is really good ON THE BASIS OF HIS EXCEPTIONAL GOAL-SCORING is not where I think he should be ranked therefore the ranking is invalid."

It's not at all obnoxious when opinions are based on actual criteria.
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:30 PM   #13
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Except there's 0 argument not to have Pavelski. He's a goal scoring two-way player. He's a top 5 goal scorer, top 10 point producer and at least top 15 defensive center over the last 3 years. If you don't have him in your top 20, it's wrong. If the list left off Gaudreau, I'm sure we wouldn't give it any credence. Pavelski is beast all the same.

People who can't back up their claims with anything "but the hidden statistically method that came up with this terrible list means it's a valid list" are worse.
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:34 PM   #14
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If the ranking was for the top 20 goal scoring centers, sure. It isn't. That's one of several components of offensive contribution, which is one of several components of the ranking, which is itself based on a number of actual criteria, weighted, and supported by a whack of data. Suggesting it's invalid because it didn't spit out a result you want is, as I said, really obnoxious and lazy. He's not alone - there are plenty of "Matthews ahead of Scheifele means this list is wrong" comments on the article itself.
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:35 PM   #15
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In what objective way is Trochek better than Pavelski over the last 3 seasons? We aren't talking about a future list with opinions and growth and age. We're talking about the last three seasons. Pavelski has him beat in every category except magic numbers that spewed out this non-sense.
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:37 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague View Post
If the ranking was for the top 20 goal scoring centers, sure. It isn't. That's one of several components of offensive contribution, which is one of several components of the ranking, which is itself based on a number of actual criteria, weighted, and supported by a whack of data. Suggesting it's invalid because it didn't spit out a result you want is, as I said, really obnoxious and lazy. He's not alone - there are plenty of "Matthews ahead of Scheifele means this list is wrong" comments on the article itself.
Speaking of ‘obnoxious and lazy’...
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:37 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague View Post
Berkshire's lists aren't the product of his "opinions". They're the result of mounds and mounds of data, which occasionally produce results that surprise even him. The only opinion that goes into it are what stats to focus on, and how to weight defensive impact vs. offensive impact.

Even if you changed the latter, it wouldn't make a massive difference to the people on the list - mostly it'd just shuffle the order a bit. Which, feel free to do; even if you think a certain player should be 7th instead of 14th or 15th instead of top ten, these players are the best ones at their respective positions.
That's not how math works. If you take data, and then manipulate it with your opinion on what different data is 'worth', then all you're left with is opinion at the end.

Data X Opinion = Opinion
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:46 PM   #18
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Here's a definitive list of the top 10 left wingers over the last 3 years, as produced by NHL.com. While I chose the criteria used, because the result was from strictly data, it's not an opinion it's entirely fact. Because it's entirely data, there's no way to criticize it. Checkmate. Sorry Gaudreau fans, he didn't quite make the cut - in fact he's not in the top 30. He must really be overrated as data can't be manipulated.


Last edited by Oling_Roachinen; 10-10-2018 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:47 PM   #19
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There are at least 4 centers on that list that I would take Monahan over in a heartbeat.
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:47 PM   #20
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Did he only take data from Draisaitl's shifts at C? Otherwise, invalid.
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