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Old 10-10-2018, 03:27 PM   #441
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A specialty arena for curling or short track speed skating for two weeks in February and then the home of....? into the future.
I would assume that it would be a replacement for the Corral.
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Old 10-10-2018, 03:55 PM   #442
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Even though it isn't in any proposal anywhere. I agree with Transplant, if the Oylmpics come to Calgary there's gonna be a new arena. This is an event seen by the world and despite the drawbacks it does bring the attention of the entire world to your city.

I just can't picture an advertisement showcasing the Calgary 2026 Olympics with a picture of the Dome in the background.

Oddly, the sentiment at work is much different than CP. People here want the city to chip in and pay a substantial amount. Their reasoning is they go to the Dome a lot more than any other building or facility in the city. Thought that was interesting. Maybe selfish and short sighted, but interesting.
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Old 10-10-2018, 04:01 PM   #443
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Even though it isn't in any proposal anywhere. I agree with Transplant, if the Oylmpics come to Calgary there's gonna be a new arena. This is an event seen by the world and despite the drawbacks it does bring the attention of the roughly 30% of the World.

I just can't picture an advertisement showcasing the Calgary 2026 Olympics with a picture of the Dome in the background.

Oddly, the sentiment at work is much different than CP. People here want the city to chip in and pay a substantial amount. Their reasoning is they go to the Dome a lot more than any other building or facility in the city. Thought that was interesting. Maybe selfish and short sighted, but interesting.
As to bolded one, yeah this ain't the summer Olympics, 50% of the world's population simply doesn't care about the Winter Olympics (and I mean don't even know they're happening type caring). Outside North America and Western Europe, it's a collective shoulder shrug. As to bolded two, your co-workers are aware they don't get to use the arena for free, and that any new arena comes with ticket prices that are guaranteed to increase a minimum of 20% right (nevermind $15 beer)? And that they can whine and moan about the Peace Bridge and Libraries, but them ####s are free to use right?
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Old 10-10-2018, 04:24 PM   #444
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As to bolded two, your co-workers are aware they don't get to use the arena for free
Actually a number of people I know who are in favour of a publicly funded new arena would get to use it for free. There are people that go to several games per year based upon corporate tickets. I used to be one of those guys, at my previous job I would get them once or twice per year, or get the call at 4:00 asking if I was given the tickets if I would use them. Then invite my other friends who often get their company's tickets, as they would invite me back next time.
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Old 10-10-2018, 04:48 PM   #445
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As to bolded one, yeah this ain't the summer Olympics, 50% of the world's population simply doesn't care about the Winter Olympics (and I mean don't even know they're happening type caring). Outside North America and Western Europe, it's a collective shoulder shrug. As to bolded two, your co-workers are aware they don't get to use the arena for free, and that any new arena comes with ticket prices that are guaranteed to increase a minimum of 20% right (nevermind $15 beer)? And that they can whine and moan about the Peace Bridge and Libraries, but them ####s are free to use right?
The point these folks are making is they don't necessarily use the peace bridge, or any field houses, library, etc. They do however go to the dome often for Hitmen, Flames, and Roughnecks games in addition to concerts etc.

They would rather taxpayer money go to something THEY use.
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Old 10-10-2018, 05:44 PM   #446
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Even though it isn't in any proposal anywhere. I agree with Transplant, if the Oylmpics come to Calgary there's gonna be a new arena. This is an event seen by the world and despite the drawbacks it does bring the attention of the entire world to your city.

I just can't picture an advertisement showcasing the Calgary 2026 Olympics with a picture of the Dome in the background.

Oddly, the sentiment at work is much different than CP. People here want the city to chip in and pay a substantial amount. Their reasoning is they go to the Dome a lot more than any other building or facility in the city. Thought that was interesting. Maybe selfish and short sighted, but interesting.
Exactly.

There is a reason that the city voted in council to get back to negotiating with the Flames in regards to building a new arena, and it isn't for any other reason than they know they need one to have a realistic chance to win the bid.

That, alone, gives the CSEC leverage. They don't have to agree to anything with anyone right now, and as pressure is added to the city if they want to win the bid, that becomes more incentive to the city to have the Flames involved at any $$ rate they can. Particularly if they want a tenant secured to anchor the arena moving forward....something essential for them to sell to the public IMO.

I think its absurd to believe the city will build only another 7000 seat arena and nothing else in regards to legacy projects and hockey arenas moving forward. That alone would see a landslide victory for the no side on a plebiscite.....even though we may see that happen regardless.
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Old 10-10-2018, 05:50 PM   #447
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The point these folks are making is they don't necessarily use the peace bridge, or any field houses, library, etc. They do however go to the dome often for Hitmen, Flames, and Roughnecks games in addition to concerts etc.

They would rather taxpayer money go to something THEY use.
And if the Peace Bridge was a profitable private enterprise, that might be a good point.
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Old 10-10-2018, 07:07 PM   #448
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Originally Posted by 8sPOT View Post
The point these folks are making is they don't necessarily use the peace bridge, or any field houses, library, etc. They do however go to the dome often for Hitmen, Flames, and Roughnecks games in addition to concerts etc.

They would rather taxpayer money go to something THEY use.
Wanting your tax dollars to go to stuff YOU use is no way to run a city.

I don't understand how someone can be so selfish as to want a new hockey rink but not libraries. The correct answer is both.
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Old 10-10-2018, 08:09 PM   #449
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I just can't picture an advertisement showcasing the Calgary 2026 Olympics with a picture of the Dome in the background.
I think they will show it over and over again as an example of how a host city was able use a structure for 2 different olympics 38 years apart.
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Old 10-10-2018, 09:03 PM   #450
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And if the Peace Bridge was a profitable private enterprise, that might be a good point.
Yup! Remember that time Darryl Katz bought a $150 million (CAD) mansion in LA early this year, after having to put up only $23 million of his own dollars to build the arena in Edmonton? Imagine if he had to put up $180 million? He wouldn't be able to just drop that $150 million on a mansion, and the City of Edmonton would have an extra $150 million to spend on useless things like improving the city. The horror!

EDIT - I rounded up to $30 million from 23, because I read that earlier tonight. Oops. Turns out Katz only spent $23 million of his own money. My mistake.
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Old 10-10-2018, 10:26 PM   #451
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The arena fits in with decades of council and government work trying to build up the tax base in the east village and victoria park. It has very little to do with the Olympics. The timing is more coincidental than anything else.
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Old 10-11-2018, 12:58 PM   #452
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https://deadspin.com/what-can-we-lea...suc-1829659467

This is a good Deadspin article about what to look for in a new arena deal.

Ironically for Edwards and Co, the two newest members of the NHL, Seattle and Las Vegas, play out of entirely privately funded buildings.
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Old 10-11-2018, 04:58 PM   #453
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As a taxpaying citizen I don't expect much out of our municipal government:

-potholes get filled on my street
-pigeon nests and vermin are removed
-Garbage and recycling are picked up properly

Do I want a new stadium, Yes, because I am one of those "selfish" #######s who gets to go to games on my company's behalf and I don't use peace bridge, bike lanes, field houses, transit, libraries or anything else and I would like to be able to use my portion of tax dollars by going to a nice new arena to watch flames games.

Maybe it's an unpopular opinion but I honestly want to see my tax dollars going to something I actually want, unlike all the 30km/h signs the city is gonna be spending money on...
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Old 10-11-2018, 05:30 PM   #454
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and I would like to be able to use my portion of tax dollars by going to a nice new arena to watch flames games.
So you want everyone else in the city to subsidize your private entertainment. Gotcha.
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Old 10-11-2018, 05:50 PM   #455
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Can we buy you a house too? How about an oil company?
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Old 10-11-2018, 05:59 PM   #456
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https://deadspin.com/what-can-we-lea...suc-1829659467

This is a good Deadspin article about what to look for in a new arena deal.

Ironically for Edwards and Co, the two newest members of the NHL, Seattle and Las Vegas, play out of entirely privately funded buildings.
I feel like this is a point that has been made before in this discussion, but an entirely privately funded arena in the Calgary market is likely not economically feasible. One will notice that successful buildings which are built with private money are also buildings set in very large—predominantly US—markets. There are only two arenas in Canada that were built with public money: Calgary's Saddledome from government Olympic funding, and Daryll Katz's penis-shaped palace in Edmonton. The buildings in Toronto and Montreal were built in the two largest cities in the country, and host arguably the most revenue-rich teams. This fact probably disqualifies both as useful comparisons to the situation in Calgary's significantly smaller market. The MTS Centre in Winnipeg is arguably not an adequate NHL arena owing to its microscopic size, and it was built at a cost of $135 m. Since Calgary will need a considerably larger arena that will cost three times the amount of money, this also is not a close comparable from which to draw. (And while the Jets are a hot ticket now, the size of the MTS Centre potentially creates problems for the team in the future when they will inevitably cycle into another rebuild: if the arena is not operating at capacity, the team cannot draw enough revenue to survive.)

The other two are arenas in Vancouver and Ottawa: Rogers Arena, and the Canadian Tire Centre. What these two privately funded arenas have in common is that their construction and operating costs were so high they forced their owners to sell them, along with their hockey teams. When the Griffiths family built Rogers Arena in 1995 the population in metro Vancouver was around 1.8 million. Were the Flames owners to commit a half-billion dollars of their own money to build a new arena I have little doubt that the same thing that happened to Griffiths and the Canucks would happen to them.
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Old 10-11-2018, 06:33 PM   #457
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I guess if a relatively stable team like Calgary can't survive in this league without heavy public subsidies, then maybe the reality is that we simply can't have NHL teams in many of our cities anymore. At some point you just have to face reality and step away.

Obviously there's not a huge incentive for them to do so if cities keep bending over, but at some point the NHL will need to work infrastructure into their business model, or start losing out on otherwise solid markets.
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Old 10-11-2018, 07:08 PM   #458
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I guess if a relatively stable team like Calgary can't survive in this league without heavy public subsidies, then maybe the reality is that we simply can't have NHL teams in many of our cities anymore. At some point you just have to face reality and step away.

Obviously there's not a huge incentive for them to do so if cities keep bending over, but at some point the NHL will need to work infrastructure into their business model, or start losing out on otherwise solid markets.
Someone has to explain why a downtown facility that can host 300 events a year is a money loser. There's no way to share the costs of something like that where one side doesn't end up raked over the coals and penniless?
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Old 10-11-2018, 07:53 PM   #459
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I feel like this is a point that has been made before in this discussion, but an entirely privately funded arena in the Calgary market is likely not economically feasible. One will notice that successful buildings which are built with private money are also buildings set in very large—predominantly US—markets. There are only two arenas in Canada that were built with public money: Calgary's Saddledome from government Olympic funding, and Daryll Katz's penis-shaped palace in Edmonton. The buildings in Toronto and Montreal were built in the two largest cities in the country, and host arguably the most revenue-rich teams. This fact probably disqualifies both as useful comparisons to the situation in Calgary's significantly smaller market. The MTS Centre in Winnipeg is arguably not an adequate NHL arena owing to its microscopic size, and it was built at a cost of $135 m. Since Calgary will need a considerably larger arena that will cost three times the amount of money, this also is not a close comparable from which to draw. (And while the Jets are a hot ticket now, the size of the MTS Centre potentially creates problems for the team in the future when they will inevitably cycle into another rebuild: if the arena is not operating at capacity, the team cannot draw enough revenue to survive.)

The other two are arenas in Vancouver and Ottawa: Rogers Arena, and the Canadian Tire Centre. What these two privately funded arenas have in common is that their construction and operating costs were so high they forced their owners to sell them, along with their hockey teams. When the Griffiths family built Rogers Arena in 1995 the population in metro Vancouver was around 1.8 million. Were the Flames owners to commit a half-billion dollars of their own money to build a new arena I have little doubt that the same thing that happened to Griffiths and the Canucks would happen to them.
There's quite a bit of public money in the Winnipeg arena.
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:25 PM   #460
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(And while the Jets are a hot ticket now, the size of the MTS Centre potentially creates problems for the team in the future when they will inevitably cycle into another rebuild: if the arena is not operating at capacity, the team cannot draw enough revenue to survive.)
Ok, so by this, do you mean to say that owning an NHL team, owning (or having sole rights to operate) the arena, and getting somewhere between most and all of the revenue streams related to the venue is a net negative business? If that's the case, which I highly doubt, considering the continued existence of teams like the Panthers and Coyotes, then the NHL should come out and prove it!

The owners of all 31 teams should make their books public, and show the haves and the have-nots. They should prove to us that they are actually providing this public service of uniting most of a city behind a common banner, giving everyone 2-4 nights a week of fun emotional release (for the price of a ticket, or overpriced cable package), and that the teams all require wealthy owners because it is truly a net negative enterprise, unless (or even if) we pay for the majority of their venues once every ~30 years (so once a year across the league, on average).

While you were referring only to the Winnipeg Jets, North American major sports are generally designed for individual teams to succeed and fail in cyclical fashion, with the draft system as it is. If over the course of a rise-and-fall cycle, it's a net negative, then they're at a deficit, and should say so! Since they don't say that, forgive me for not being able to believe that for a single fricking second!
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