Offence Drying Up - Looking at the Forwards

[Macho0978]

The next few weeks I think this will change for the good. If you look, the Flames schedule until Christmas is looking very good. They need to get the right line combos and take advantage of the next stretch.

14 games and we have a few back to backs but we receive a few that play the night before too.

Montreal x 2
Arizona
Columbus
Sharks x 2
Canucks
Leafs
Panthers
Wild
Blues
Kings
Ducks
Capitals

Leafs and Kings are the only top 10 teams in the next 14 games. Most these teams are in the bottom half of the league. Need to get rolling now and as we could be 6-8 games over .500 by Christmas if we do.

[Strange Brew]

Seems like we are coming up to make or break time if the schedule is indeed softer. You don't want to be playing catch up in the standings.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I do wonder if there's something to the idea of them not being allowed to be creative and have to stick to the rigid system. We know these are good players, but they're just not playing like we know they can

Individually Jonathan Huberdeau is shooting and creating less for himself than he has at any point in his NHL career. So, yes. I would absolutely say that it's a deployment and systematic problem. You don't try and put the reigns on a 115 point player.

In my opinion the top line being as dominant as it was last year with three elite players playing at their absolute best's really masked the issues that Sutter's system has with goal generation. The Kings were also a "corsi" dominant team that struggled to score goals and were predictable to defend as well. That pattern is repeating itself. It's not a coincidence that Kopitar went from 52 point season - to a 92 point season after Darryl's departure.

Sutter is trying to recreate what made the Kings so successful a decade ago - but the issue with that is the game is far more reliant on pure skill now. The last time the Kings won the cup there was one player in the NHL with 90 or more points - while last season alone there was 16 players who hit that mark.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

For next year. This year his cap hit is 5.9

Remember how bad Dougie Hamilton was in his first 20 games? Patience

Huberdeau is a very good player, everyone will love him 20 games from now

Probably not, at least for me.

I wasn’t a fan of his even upon the trade. There’s just a lot of warts in his game and it was clear his style was not going to work well under Sutter. Not tenacious enough, weak stick, doesn’t front pucks very well, not puck dominant, pretty soft for a player his size.

Even just watching him attempt to gel with every line is frustrating because he tends to be the worst player of the three. I don’t doubt that he’ll start to be more productive then he has been so far, but I don’t think I will personally ever like his “game,” his style isn’t conducive for the rigors and intensity of the playoffs IMO.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

Individually Jonathan Huberdeau is shooting and creating less for himself than he has at any point in his NHL career. So, yes. I would absolutely say that it's a deployment and systematic problem. You don't try and put the reigns on a 115 point player.

In my opinion the top line being as dominant as it was last year with three elite players playing at their absolute best's really masked the issues that Sutter's system has with goal generation. The Kings were also a "corsi" dominant team that struggled to score goals and were predictable to defend as well. That pattern is repeating itself. It's not a coincidence that Kopitar went from 52 point season - to a 92 point season after Darryl's departure.

Sutter is trying to recreate what made the Kings so successful a decade ago - but the issue with that is the game is far more reliant on pure skill now. The last time the Kings won the cup there was one player in the NHL with 90 or more points - while last season alone there was 16 players who hit that mark.

Yes, there’s definitely some truth to this. I know for myself, I was very concerned with how this team would fair without the dominant first line from last season. They were the even strength kings of the NHL. They scored a ton 5 on 5, but didn’t give up much either, all the while playing Sutter’s checking system to a T. This team badly misses everything they brought to the table. They definitely made Sutter’s job easier.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Yes, there’s definitely some truth to this. I know for myself, I was very concerned with how this team would fair without the dominant first line from last season. They were the even strength kings of the NHL. They scored a ton 5 on 5, but didn’t give up much either, all the while playing Sutter’s checking system to a T. This team badly misses everything they brought to the table. They definitely made Sutter’s job easier.

But the big line from last year didn't click the second Sutter was hired either. It took some bumps along the way too.

First 19 games under sutter:

Tkachuk - 10 points - 12 in first 24 games
Gaudreau - 11 points
Lindholm - 17 points

Only Lindholm seems to adjust quickly but Gaudreau and Tkachuk did not just take off the second Sutter was hired.

Huberdeau also was traded for the first time in his career adn was not expecting it. It's been an adjustment and then he gets a Sutter type coach when he gets here. Combined this with an injury he's started slow in first 21 games of the season. Let's see how the next 20 go.

[NewFan]

Yes, I think Huberdeau is struggling to adjust to the new system and to his line mates and he also tries very hard to play well and thinking too much. Sometimes he can't even receive a pass and can't make a quick play as he trying to find his partners on the ice and is taking a little longer and looses the puck.
I would let him have same 2 guys and leave then about 10 games until they can find their games. May be Lindholm and Mangi? I don't like Toffoli with him as Toffoli is not good at making plays or make a quick transition for rush. Toffoli may play better with Kadri or Backlund.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

But the big line from last year didn't click the second Sutter was hired either. It took some bumps along the way too.

First 19 games under sutter:

Tkachuk - 10 points - 12 in first 24 games
Gaudreau - 11 points
Lindholm - 17 points

Only Lindholm seems to adjust quickly but Gaudreau and Tkachuk did not just take off the second Sutter was hired.

Huberdeau also was traded for the first time in his career adn was not expecting it. It's been an adjustment and then he gets a Sutter type coach when he gets here. Combined this with an injury he's started slow in first 21 games of the season. Let's see how the next 20 go.

No, the top line from last season (Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk) clicked right away. They clicked the second they were assembled by Bill Peters back in the 2019 Heritage Classic where we first saw them together. They were then re-assembled by Sutter late into the 2021 season and played the final 16 games together where they absolutely crushed it.

It is true however that Tkachuk and Gaudreau didn’t start off well right away under Sutter, but Gaudreau was playing with Monahan and Ritchie and Tkachuk was maybe playing with Lindholm and Dube. It wasn’t until the trio was finally united when everything clicked. Perhaps that’s all that Huberdeau needs, is the just the right linemates. But I feel like he’s been tried with every forward on the roster. So maybe, the Flames need to acquire somebody.

As for the last point. It’s really just my opinion, but I just don’t see how Huberdeau fits under Sutter’s system. There are certain types of player attributes and traits that work well with Darryl, things like tenacity, ruggedness, a heavy stick, high motor, high pace, high battle and engagement levels. I just don’t know if Huberdeau has enough of these traits to be an effective Darryl Sutter player.

If he can at the very least, start improving his checking game, then maybe he has a chance. But it’s bad right now, maybe the worst on team. Not sure it’s in his DNA though, I think he’s definitely built more for the rope-a-dope, wide open, trade chances kind of hockey that we don’t play.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

Individually Jonathan Huberdeau is shooting and creating less for himself than he has at any point in his NHL career. So, yes. I would absolutely say that it's a deployment and systematic problem. You don't try and put the reigns on a 115 point player.

In my opinion the top line being as dominant as it was last year with three elite players playing at their absolute best's really masked the issues that Sutter's system has with goal generation. The Kings were also a "corsi" dominant team that struggled to score goals and were predictable to defend as well. That pattern is repeating itself. It's not a coincidence that Kopitar went from 52 point season - to a 92 point season after Darryl's departure.

Sutter is trying to recreate what made the Kings so successful a decade ago - but the issue with that is the game is far more reliant on pure skill now. The last time the Kings won the cup there was one player in the NHL with 90 or more points - while last season alone there was 16 players who hit that mark.

I would say that there is nothing wrong with this Sutter system any moreso than there are huge problems with the way the Oilers play the game.

The bottom line is that the goaltending and defending need to be top 5. Special teams needs to be right up there as well, and the team needs to be able to be far more productive in terms of getting into the hard areas than they have been.

[SaskyFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by boogerz

Huberdeau - Kadri - Phillips
Ruzicka - Lindholm - Toffoli
Mangiapane - Backlund - Coleman
Lucic/Ritchie - Dube - Lewis

Don't mess with the Ruzicka/Lindholm/Toffoli combination that seems to work pretty well.

Reunite the tried and true Mangiapane/Backund/Coleman line

Put Kadri with Huberdeau. Huberdeau gets his puck carrier and Kadri gets a partner talented enough where he feels less inclined to try doing everything himself.

Put Dube at C on the fourth line and see how he responds to being "the guy" on his line instead of a passenger

These lines demonstrate how they are one forward short. Maybe Phillips is that forward but he also may not be. They should try him to find out and if not need to come to another solution quickly. I don’t think Dube is the answer up there, he is just too inconsistent.

Keep scuffling along like they have been and they could be in big trouble come Christmas.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

No, the top line from last season (Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk) clicked right away. They clicked the second they were assembled by Bill Peters back in the 2019 Heritage Classic where we first saw them together. They were then re-assembled by Sutter late into the 2021 season and played the final 16 games together where they absolutely crushed it.

It is true however that Tkachuk and Gaudreau didn’t start off well right away under Sutter, but Gaudreau was playing with Monahan and Ritchie and Tkachuk was maybe playing with Lindholm and Dube. It wasn’t until the trio was finally united when everything clicked. Perhaps that’s all that Huberdeau needs, is the just the right linemates. But I feel like he’s been tried with every forward on the roster. So maybe, the Flames need to acquire somebody.

As for the last point. It’s really just my opinion, but I just don’t see how Huberdeau fits under Sutter’s system. There are certain types of player attributes and traits that work well with Darryl, things like tenacity, ruggedness, a heavy stick, high motor, high pace, high battle and engagement levels. I just don’t know if Huberdeau has enough of these traits to be an effective Darryl Sutter player.

If he can at the very least, start improving his checking game, then maybe he has a chance. But it’s bad right now, maybe the worst on team. Not sure it’s in his DNA though, I think he’s definitely built more for the rope-a-dope, wide open, trade chances kind of hockey that we don’t play.

Pretty sure it was Monahan with Lindholm and Gaudreau in 2019. Tkachuk played with Baclund

Pretty sure everyone said Gaudreau would struggle under sutter.

Huberdeau is getting same treatment Tkachuk and Gaudreau got when they struggled under sutter. Sutter reunited the top line for tonight’s game. Let’s see how it goes?