An inappropriate joke by an MP is not really a #MeToo moment: Robyn Urback
James Bezan's quip was supremely dumb. But it shouldn't be conflated with the stories of chronic abuse
I'm still of the notion that the Liberals were getting their heads bashed in on Morneau, and Trudeau failing in China needed a distraction and wanted to use this. It'd be interesting to see why Bezan stood up in Parliment when he did to get "on top of this" maybe he heard that the Liberal's were going to use this.
The next step has to be for Bezan to release a copy of his apology letter that Romanado says wasn't dressed as an apology to her.
At the end of the day this was investigated and wasn't deemed to be sexual harassment, it was a joke in incredibly bad taste that he should have been apologizing for. But her saying that it created workplace stress, come on get serious.
This to me isn't some #metoo moment, this is a gross use of a serious issue for political gains, and if that's true then the Liberals should be ashamed of themselves.
i would expect we'll see a $10,000 expense claim from Romanado for counseling.
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Are we going to pretend that sexual assault translates into who asks whom out for a date?
Well it's affecting the way I and and many of the men I know are approaching women. Not because we were sexual assaulters, because we want to make sure we aren't. So it's not pretend. I feel it. Wastedyouth feels it. Many of my friends feel it. The whole point is this is not just about "sexual assault". It's about a pattern of behaviour and the cultural way men and women have associated for decades and centuries. Changing that culture is a good thing because it was garbage before. But it's going to have ripple affects in how we associate with each other. How can it not?
Saying that women might have to be more assertive in first contact meetings due to men becoming more reserved based on changing sexual paradigms is not a bad thing, or a backhanded comment, or a stupid threat. It's an observation.
Are we going to pretend that sexual assault translates into who asks whom out for a date?
Who said anything about sexual assault? I thought we were talking about harassment, a behaviour that is sufficiently broad and subjective that there can be genuine confusion about when it takes place (i.e. what constitutes an inappropriate joke or unwanted attention).
Behaving among colleagues the way you would behave around your mom or sister isn't especially useful advice once we move beyond the workplace and into mixed social settings outside work. Unless women want men who are interested in dating to treat them like their sister. Which I doubt.
People want this to be simple, straightforward stuff. But it isn't. Humans get social cues mixed up all the time, especially in a liberal, open culture like ours, where mating behaviour isn't strictly controlled by convention and enforced by parents or religious authorities.
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Originally Posted by fotze
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Last edited by CliffFletcher; 12-06-2017 at 11:00 AM.
An inappropriate joke by an MP is not really a #MeToo moment: Robyn Urback
James Bezan's quip was supremely dumb. But it shouldn't be conflated with the stories of chronic abuse
That's insane. Bezan makes a dumb PG-13 joke and has to run through a HR process, take 'sensitivity training,' and apologize in front of parliament. Sure it was recommended that there be 'no disciplinary action' but I would argue that the whole process in of itself is punishment that is greatly out sized for the action. Also lol at Romanado considering herself a 'victim'. This whole moral panic cheapens the tragedy of the actual victims involved in the #metoo movement. Dumb comment and inappropriate, not worth the ink and time spent on it.
If regular, well-meaning people's everyday behavior can get caught up by the moral panic then it's clearly gone many deviations too far and has to be dialed back. Making an initial move at the end of a date is not assault, criminal, harassment, or wrong behavior at all. Pressing on after being rejected is. I won't alter my behavior one bit because of this because I don't rape, assault, harass or use power to make sexual advances. Then again I'm lucky in that I managed to get married just before the world lost it's mind the last few years.
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Christie Blatchford at the National Post has a particularly blunt spin on it.
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Comes a time, as the great Neil Young once sang.
Comes a time to draw the line, to note that not all remarks of a sexual nature are actually sexual in nature, that not all talk that is debatably inappropriate must be censored, that sometimes a bad line is just a bad line and that the #metoo movement does not require every woman to recall and publicize every slight, real or imagined, ever inflicted upon her by every man in the world.
Sherry Romanado is 43 years old, the mother of two grown soldier sons, a Liberal MP from Quebec, parliamentary secretary to the veterans affairs minister, and, according to her bio, a long-time “engaged citizen.”
Chiefly, it appears, what she must have been engaged in all that long while is burying her head up her own bum.
If that joke caused her trauma and workplace stress and her to burst into tears as she related it to her collegues, she's either
- Not suited for a high pressure job and is over sensitive
- She's looking more long term disability or money
- She's a dupe given a script by the Liberal Party.
She's also a negative side effect of woman who are choosing to come forward after acts of actual sexual assault or harassment in the workplace. she's not the #metoo, she's the #Whataboutme
Bezan apologize or tried to multiple times in both writing and in person. He submitted to the investigation which basically came back with a "Why are we wasting time with this".
He didn't say, "Hey lady, I'm thinking of a threesome with you right now, and I'm the senior MP here"
"He didn't reach out and fondle her"
he didn't snear at her while looking at her breasts.
He said a lame an ill timed joke, that didn't body shame her, or humiliate her.
The fact that he tried to apologize mulitple times and she wouldn't accept it, tells me that she filed this away for use later.
I'm sorry Mrs Romanado but can we please get back to focusing on real heroic woman and others that are coming forward after facing real incidents of sexual assault and harassment?
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Anyway, at some point, Bezan and Romanado posed for a picture with an unidentified third person. As they did so, Bezan said, “This isn’t my idea of a threesome.”
...Perhaps Romanado’s face betrayed her sense of outrage, because by the next day, Bezan apparently realized he’d said something inappropriate and tried in vain to apologize. By May 10, Romanado had formally complained to Chief Human Resources Officer Pierre Parent. Bezan immediately offered to enter into mediation, an offer that was also refused.
What a monster.
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Since she has refused to comment further — except to tell a reporter later Monday, her eyes brimming according to a Globe and Mail report, that “it’s been an incredibly difficult seven months” — how is anyone to know?
What were we saying about harassment being obvious to anyone with a brain? If we ran this scenario past 100 women, how many do you think would say it was sexual harassment? Something that would traumatize a woman for seven months?
So do we define harassment as something 95 per cent of women would find distressing? 50 per cent? 5 per cent?
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Here, I must stop to point out that the CBC online story about it began as follows: “A Liberal MP has called out a Conservative MP for making ‘humiliating and unwanted’ sexual remarks she says caused her great stress in the workplace.”
Of course they did. The CBC is the sober, objective, nuanced voice of reason in this country.
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Comes a time to ‘call out’ those who reflexively describe ordinary human behaviour (which is to say, imperfect behaviour) as abusive and those who reflexively report it as gospel.
They damage the very cause they purport to be championing by expanding its definition to absurd breadth. I don't know why people do this sort of thing over and over again. X is a really important issue. Therefore, I have to find X in as many places and in every degree, large or small, everywhere I look. That approach does not help the cause - it hurts it.
A cynic might say these people exploit social issues for their own status and gain. But I suppose its unfair to suggest that people attracted to power and fame may have such ugly motivations.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
He said a lame an ill timed joke, that didn't body shame her, or humiliate her.
I'm not sure how you know this. It would be humiliating if someone said that to me. At the very least it was completely inappropriate. Timing has zero to do with it. Her reaction is over the top but the initial apology is well deserved.
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She's also a negative side effect of woman who are choosing to come forward after acts of actual sexual assault or harassment in the workplace. she's not the #metoo, she's the #Whataboutme
She's going to be a #gimme, you just watch. I'd like to elbow her in the boob. Frankly? #cryme
He shouldn't have said it. I would have laughed though. I would not have been offended by that in the slightest because I might have even made the same quip, before he could have. I have a somewhat ribald sense of humor and it's something I might have said - IF I KNEW THE PERSON(S) WELL ENOUGH. You have to know your audience and he didn't. But this is not and should not be the big brouhaha she's trying to turn it into.
I'm not sure how you know this. It would be humiliating if someone said that to me. At the very least it was completely inappropriate. Timing has zero to do with it. Her reaction is over the top but the initial apology is well deserved.
And he tried to apologize in person and multiple times after that.
So obviously it feels like she didn't want to heal from this or move on from this. It comes across as someone that wants to milk it.
I've said that it was a joke in poor taste and the timing of it was certainly stupid on his part at a public event.
But beyond the apology what does she want from him? A public flogging? A long prison term? Maybe a force castration in a public square using a mini guillotine?
The timing of this is so suspicious, The Liberals are getting blasted on the Morenau thing that has gained a lot of traction. Trudeau got nowhere in China.
Oh look a distraction, I know its been 7 months since this happened and the CHR said this wasn't harassment or assault, but lets throw it at the wall and see if it sticks.
The whole thing smells completely like political opportunism and the worst form of gutter politics.
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In a world where some men harass women, and lot of other men are bad at reading social cues, it makes sense to adopt a norm where women take the initiative when it comes to sexual matters. Some people - men and women - aren't going to like that. But it's the sensible way to address these matters.
That only solves the problem if you have a double standard.
An inappropriate joke by an MP is not really a #MeToo moment: Robyn Urback
James Bezan's quip was supremely dumb. But it shouldn't be conflated with the stories of chronic abuse
I definitely think it was an inappropriate comment. I generally try to avoid parliamentary debates, but from the few I have seen, they almost always seem to be characterized by inappropriate, rude, and childish behaviour. Perhaps someone with more experience can comment on this?
I definitely think it was an inappropriate comment. I generally try to avoid parliamentary debates, but from the few I have seen, they almost always seem to be characterized by inappropriate, rude, and childish behaviour. Perhaps someone with more experience can comment on this?
Inappropriate, yes. Harassment? I don't think so. But we're seeing all sorts of cases of inappropriate being conflated with harassment, and harassment conflated with sexual assault, and the same public shaming being applied indiscriminately to all of them. It's astonishing how quickly these things become moral panics nowadays.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
Inappropriate, yes. Harassment? I don't think so. But we're seeing all sorts of cases of inappropriate being conflated with harassment, and harassment conflated with sexual assault, and the same public shaming being applied indiscriminately to all of them. It's astonishing how quickly these things become moral panics nowadays.
I'm not saying it was excusable behaviour, but I was under the impression that comments of a sexual nature weren't all that uncommon either.
