[News] Norris Finalists: Chara, Keith, Weber

[Point Blank]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

It took me 4 pages? Was this argument not predicated on the graph I posted on this very first page of this thread?

How does such a graph not support my claim? How is it not backing my argument with numbers?

Putting a graph that compares a few numbers between the three Norris candidates is not the same as making a point and defending it with numbers and giving a thorough explanation. There's no interpretation involved, not everyone believes that a lower number of blocked shots, hits, of QoC is equivalent to weaker overall defensive capability, because it may be explained by other factors, such as Keith's ability to read the play, be in position, or handle the puck.

Comparatively speaking, the years Lidstrom won the Norris after the lockout, his hits and blocked shots were around the same numbers as Keith this year.

[Ashasx]

So wait, first you say I didn't provide evidence to back up my claim, then I did, but apparently it wasn't good enough (QoC and zone starts are extremely telling numbers) because Lidstrom had similar hits and blocked shots?

Are we seriously comparing Lidstrom, a generational defensemen with elite defensive acumen, to Keith? I don't know why I'm still posting in this thread.

[formulate]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

So wait, first you say I didn't provide evidence to back up my claim, then I did, but apparently it wasn't good enough (QoC and zone starts are extremely telling numbers) because Lidstrom had similar hits and blocked shots?

Are we seriously comparing Lidstrom, a generational defensemen with elite defensive acumen, to Keith? I don't know why I'm still posting in this thread.

Zone starts of Quality of Competition numbers definitely give a nice context to the possession and offensive numbers for any player. But I don't think they can be used to fully discredit that player. Yes, Keith played against (somewhat significantly) easier opponents and with more offensive zone time, so his numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. But those numbers are dominant. This isn't a case of, say, Giordano vs Shattenkirk where their possession numbers are similar and deployment numbers can be used to pick the defenseman who is clearly better. Keith has a nearly 9% edge in on-ice shot attempts at 5v5, and finished 5 points up on Weber. Nashville actually carried the play slightly better when Weber wasn't on the ice.

I still couldn't tell you who I'd vote for if given the opportunity. It's so hard to compare the year that these 3 guys had just based on the fact that their situations are all very different. I can tell you that I think Chara was about 10 points short of making it easy for me. Roll a die between these 3 along with Suter, Doughty and Giordano and the winner is probably deserving.

[Ashasx]

I'm not saying it's black and white, just that I have supported my claim and that my opinion isn't farfetched.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by formulate

Zone starts of Quality of Competition numbers definitely give a nice context to the possession and offensive numbers for any player. But I don't think they can be used to fully discredit that player. Yes, Keith played against (somewhat significantly) easier opponents and with more offensive zone time, so his numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. But those numbers are dominant. This isn't a case of, say, Giordano vs Shattenkirk where their possession numbers are similar and deployment numbers can be used to pick the defenseman who is clearly better. Keith has a nearly 9% edge in on-ice shot attempts at 5v5, and finished 5 points up on Weber. Nashville actually carried the play slightly better when Weber wasn't on the ice.

I still couldn't tell you who I'd vote for if given the opportunity. It's so hard to compare the year that these 3 guys had just based on the fact that their situations are all very different. I can tell you that I think Chara was about 10 points short of making it easy for me. Roll a die between these 3 along with Suter, Doughty and Giordano and the winner is probably deserving.

It's really tough between Chara and Keith. Almost a coin flip. After that I would go Suter, Giordano, Weber, Pieterangelo, etc. A name that normally wouldn't be in the conversation but had a surprisingly effective season is Matt Niskanen.

[formulate]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It's really tough between Chara and Keith. Almost a coin flip. After that I would go Suter, Giordano, Weber, Pieterangelo, etc. A name that normally wouldn't be in the conversation but had a surprisingly effective season is Matt Niskanen.

*Cough* contract year *cough*. Even if he had a pedestrian year he probably was going to pull close 5 million long-term. Now I won't be surprised if we're in the 6-7 range with max term. It's just the way free agency is headed, especially with the cap going back up. He's a guy I'd love on this team pushing Gio and Brodie for top minutes, but it's just not gonna happen until we can be a competitive team again.

[Point Blank]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

So wait, first you say I didn't provide evidence to back up my claim, then I did, but apparently it wasn't good enough (QoC and zone starts are extremely telling numbers) because Lidstrom had similar hits and blocked shots?

Are we seriously comparing Lidstrom, a generational defensemen with elite defensive acumen, to Keith? I don't know why I'm still posting in this thread.

No I didn't say that. To suggest that it was evidence for your claim is silly when you didn't even interpret the data in the first place.

Keith isn't close to Lidstrom obviously, but Lidstrom is the prototype of an elite defensemen whose talents lie more with his position, smarts, and puck carrying ability more than grit.

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I don't know why I'm still posting in this thread.

If you're going to victimize yourself after posting belittling comments about Norris trophy voters and other thread posters, then I agree, you should think long and hard as to why you are still posting on this thread