Anyway. I'm just saying that as easy as it is to believe that pro athletes are scumbags, it's also just as easy to belive that a girl in a bar might lie to try to get paid or a 15 year old might fantasize about a rich and famous guy.
Spoken like someone who doesn't have many close female friends and/or has never studied the actual stats behind false reports.
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What is the difference between facetious and sarcastic?
Facetious may be defined as "joking or jesting often inappropriately" or "not serious." Sarcastic, on the other hand, while still concerned with humor, tends to imply a more caustic or biting quality that is often intended to cause pain.
Spoken like someone who doesn't have many close female friends and/or has never studied the actual stats behind false reports.
Come on, dude. We were actually having a pretty decent conversation here about this. At no point in time did I say I believe anyone on that list is guilty or innocent. I'm just discussing what should constitute a person's inclusion in a list like that.
There was an excellent comment here about the Lucic incident. Someone overheard an argument outside a night club and "heard a noise that sounded like a slap" but didn't see anything. Both Lucic and the girl denied any thing happened, but now he's on list of examples of "rape culture."
Last edited by FanIn80; 07-04-2022 at 11:57 AM.
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In the US, high schools and colleges/universities represent the feeder network for the big leagues. In Canada, we don't place that level of emphasis on high or secondary school sports. There, it's a HUGE thing with a lot of pride and a massive viewership... here, it's just something that gets in the way of important things like religious studies and being home on time for supper.
US college sports are likely insane for sexual assaults and rapes as well. And we've seen high profile US court cases that show how poorly they care to punish perpetrators so underreporting is likely massive.
Similar to the Hollywood problems, this issue is rampant anywhere there's high profile males put on pedestals and given power through their positions.
I don't think this is a hockey issue alone but it's on hockey to clean up their own culture, they can't excuse it away because it's on other sports/professions too.
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I just think it’s not very helpful. I’m also not a lawyer but I would guess if this happened in 2022 the face value of a diary entry like that would be taken much more seriously by the justice department.
US college sports are likely insane for sexual assaults and rapes as well. And we've seen high profile US court cases that show how poorly they care to punish perpetrators so underreporting is likely massive.
Similar to the Hollywood problems, this issue is rampant anywhere there's high profile males put on pedestals and given power through their positions.
I don't think this is a hockey issue alone but it's on hockey to clean up their own culture, they can't excuse it away because it's on other sports/professions too.
Yeah, absolutely. It goes without saying that stuff like this is happening. Of course it's happening, and of course it needs to be stopped. I'm just not a fan of this how this list was put together.
This is literally why God invented the legal system. Unfortunately though, it also appears to be why God invented newspapers and the internet.
Which day was it again that God invented the legal system?
Are all of the stories true? Probably not. I think it's pretty clear that hockey in particular has a culture problem and it's not just one or two bad apples. The number of stories of group rape is absolutely disgusting.
Last edited by Torture; 07-04-2022 at 12:21 PM.
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I just think it’s not very helpful. I’m also not a lawyer but I would guess if this happened in 2022 the face value of a diary entry like that would be taken much more seriously by the justice department.
I don't know... that's an interesting discussion all on its own. I think it would have been taken more seriously back then, since people were more often believed at their word than they are now. Also less precedence back then too. I'm not even sure if a person's diary would even be admissible in today's system, since it seems to me like it would just be hearsay. Like isn't it just attempting to submit testimony without the person themselves testifying?
I'm totally willing to be wrong on this. Maybe a lawyer here can comment?
So basically what you’re saying is that the nhl and other pro leagues have normalized and continued to allow the abuse of women, girls, boys and men in their culture,in 2022?
My intuition is this sort of toxic sexual entitlement is associated with sports that are:
* Team sports
* Violent
* High-status
I’d be very surprised if 19 year old badminton players and cross-country runners are involved in as many instances of sexual predation and coercion as their counterparts in hockey and football.
I'd be interested in seeing that, I know you are speaking purely off the top of your head, but it would be interesting to see.
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Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
Yeah, absolutely. It goes without saying that stuff like this is happening. Of course it's happening, and of course it needs to be stopped. I'm just not a fan of this how this list was put together.
Perhaps the purpose of the list is what you are actually unsure about. I have the same reservations about the Lucic inclusion, for example, but I understand on some level why it's included. This assemblage isn't meant to direct blame at specific players or individuals IMO, rather it is a data driven attempt to amass all mentions or known reported events that approach the rape/sexual assault culture within the NHL. Though the Lucic example is among the lightest on the list, it shares elements of potential domestic violence, outside witnesses, and denial with other reports on the list which are more damning. I can understand the inclusion of this event on the list even if I believe that Lucic is unlikely to have assaulted his partner.
I don't know... that's an interesting discussion all on its own. I think it would have been taken more seriously back then, since people were more often believed at their word than they are now. Also less precedence back then too. I'm not even sure if a person's diary would even be admissible in today's system, since it seems to me like it would just be hearsay. Like isn't it just attempting to submit testimony without the person themselves testifying?
I'm totally willing to be wrong on this. Maybe a lawyer here can comment?
Considering how easily many of these types of cases (with stronger evidence) were dismissed prior to #metoo, I would be surprised if evidence of that kind would have been taken seriously at all during the 1980's and not dismissed as the fantasies of a school girl. The courts starting to take women at their word about abuse is really only a recent development in our cultural history.
Today, I think this wouldn't be hearsay but written evidence of abuse because of the context a) She wrote it in a personal space that she didn't intend to share b) She didn't write it as a fantasy, but as a recollection of events. I think the fact she confirmed it was true with her parents would likely be more than enough evidence to build a strong case in 2022.
Again, not a lawyer but I also would be interested to hear what one would think.
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Perhaps the purpose of the list is what you are actually unsure about. I have the same reservations about the Lucic inclusion, for example, but I understand on some level why it's included. This assemblage isn't meant to direct blame at specific players or individuals IMO, rather it is a data driven attempt to amass all mentions or known reported events that approach the rape/sexual assault culture within the NHL. Though the Lucic example is among the lightest on the list, it shares elements of potential domestic violence, outside witnesses, and denial with other reports on the list which are more damning. I can understand the inclusion of this event on the list even if I believe that Lucic is unlikely to have assaulted his partner.
Yeah, my only complaint is that there is some mixed messaging in the list itself. On the one hand, the file is titled "Rape Culture," but then the stated purpose is much more clearly spelled out and nuanced: "This is a compilation of info I've found about instances or accusations of misogynistic, often violent, conduct towards women by hockey players, from junior hockey up through the NHL."
Under those conditions, the story about Lucic and his girlfriend certainly qualifies as an "accusation"—albeit, one that is third hand, and clearly not borne out by the evidence, and denied by both parties. But I don't think the inclusion of this incident (which most likely amounts to nothing) does anything to detract from the very serious nature of most of the other documented information.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
I don't know... that's an interesting discussion all on its own. I think it would have been taken more seriously back then, since people were more often believed at their word than they are now. Also less precedence back then too...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole436
Considering how easily many of these types of cases (with stronger evidence) were dismissed prior to #metoo, I would be surprised if evidence of that kind would have been taken seriously at all during the 1980's and not dismissed as the fantasies of a school girl. The courts starting to take women at their word about abuse is really only a recent development in our cultural history.
This also struck me as an odd comment, but I wonder if FanIn80 is misconstruing one type of collective behaviour for another. I wonder if he is drawing from the Satanic Panic of the 1980s to make his point that diary entries from a young adult "would have been taken more seriously back then." But I think these were different situations stemming from different circumstances—one of the reasons so many people were convinced by the testimony of small children responding to leading questions was because of how bizarrely sensationalistic the accusations were. It was long thought that children were simply incapable of making such things up, and thus must be true.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
This also struck me as an odd comment, but I wonder if FanIn80 is misconstruing one type of collective behaviour for another. I wonder if he is drawing from the Satanic Panic of the 1980s to make his point that diary entries from a young adult "would have been taken more seriously back then." But I think these were different situations stemming from different circumstances—one of the reasons so many people were convinced by the testimony of small children responding to leading questions was because of how bizarrely sensationalistic the accusations were. It was long thought that children were simply incapable of making such things up, and thus must be true.
That's a fair point. I suppose I am melding those two scenarios together. It's amazing how much things have changed over my 47 years... I can only imagine what my 80 year-old father must have seen evolve.
Last edited by FanIn80; 07-04-2022 at 01:39 PM.
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Not really. Just gets old having people insinuate that all hockey players are rapists.
Shouldn’t the same metrics be used for the general population?
Not really, just because there are sexual predator in hockey doesn't mean people are saying every hockey player is rapist. Just like there are sexual predator in everyday life, doesn't mean every single person is sexual predator. Like I said early, that was not what the OP intention, I believe. By not shedding any light into this subject doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
After I read the chart, I got disgusted what had happened. And I got disgusted that those hockey players got away with what they allegedly did. But I don't see all hockey player as rapist or sexual predator.
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