Is the War-on-Drugs about Race?

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Gozer

This is the crux of the issue; everyone does the same amount of crime yet blacks are punished to a much greater extent.

Really? You have statistics on how often people of different races commit crimes and don't get caught?

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

never said things were fine.

which is dumb and stupid assertion. people are in proverty thanks to themselves or their genes.

"They deserve it" is exactly what I meant when I said that viewpoints are "skewed toward 'things are fine.'"

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

So do you have any stats on what the punishment for blacks is when the judge is black?

I don't.
The judges often have no say in their sentences. Part of my OP was a Mass. judge (this week) said that he was revolted at his "unjust and racist" sentence.

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

It's just a stat if it's actually accurate. But you can use stats to argue anything, I could say based on that statement, that maybe the reason for this is repeat offenders. Higher rates of proverty etc...other charges ect..

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

But to such there is a system wide consiparcy is something i will never buy into. There other legit and logical reasons besides race.

Institutional racism doesn't have to be a conspiracy

[MelBridgeman]

Regardless, how does blaming this on racism solve the problem? Is stopping racism going to prevent blacks or others from being incarcerated for drugs and other crimes? NO.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Gozer

The argument has also been presented that blacks are systematically kept in poverty by the Prison-Industrial complex for the purpose of preventing racial balancing of wealth.

Has that argument ever been presented coherently? Just because someone makes an argument doesn't make it any good.

The cycle of poverty is terrible, but it also exists in racial groups in other countries. Are the private prisons keeping the native people here in poverty? How about the polynesians in Fiji? (Massively poorer than the Indian minority)

It doesn't seem likely, since neither us nor the Fijians have private prisons. Maybe there are other factors at play than some ridiculous conspiracy theory.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Ark2

I read the quoted texts that you posted and that's the leap in logic that I am referring to. Unless I missed something, it seems to go from black people are unfairly being imprisoned to the reason they are doing it is so we can have black slaves again. Does that seriously seem like a reasonable conclusion to you?

I do not find the accusation without merit.
I'm presenting the argument for discussion.
I really don't know what the answer is.

[MickMcGeough]

This is what I'm talking about Gozer. You've accumulated loads of highly interesting statistics (at least to me), that really tell the story themselves, but people are nitpicking all your posts due to the bias you've presented it all with.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Really? You have statistics on how often people of different races commit crimes and don't get caught?

Seriously?

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Has that argument ever been presented coherently? Just because someone makes an argument doesn't make it any good.

I actually didn't read the book referenced in the second post, but based on the snippet from the newspaper I posted, I expect she present the argument quite lucidly.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by MickMcGeough

This is what I'm talking about Gozer. You've accumulated loads of highly interesting statistics (at least to me), that really tell the story themselves, but people are nitpicking all your posts due to the bias you've presented it all with.

How could I have presented the argument with less bias?

Watering it down?

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Seriously?

Yes, seriously. You posted that different racial groups (everybody) commits the same amount of crime, and I seriously doubt that's true. It isn't reflected in arrest or conviction statistics, so the only thing that would be left would be statistics for unreported crime, which would be made up, practically by definintion.

Certain racial groups are more likely to be poor. Poor people commit much more crime. Ergo, those racial groups probably commit more crime.

I'm not saying higher arrests of blacks and other races aren't a racial problem, but I think it's more a problem with racism in the economy than a giant conspiracy to inprison a racial underclass.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Gozer

I actually didn't read the book referenced in the second post, but based on the snippet from the newspaper I posted, I expect she present the argument quite lucidly.

So you took a snippet quoted in a newspaper out of a book you haven't read and used that to infer a well argued thesis that supports your own biased view.

That's obviously superior to debating the point I brought up, that higher crime rates exist among economically disadvantaged races in countries without private prisons, suggesting the link between private prisons and racial incarceration is probably made up by the tinfoil hat crowd.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Regardless, how does blaming this on racism solve the problem?

Blame rarely leads to solutions.

It's much more difficult to find a solution when we haven't addressed the problem.

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

s stopping racism going to prevent blacks or others from being incarcerated for drugs and other crimes? NO.

It might put more white people in jail for committing the same crimes.

Which would be a good thing if the prisoners that are in jail should be.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Gozer

It might put more white people in jail for committing the same crimes.

Which would be a good thing if the prisoners that are in jail should be.

Maybe we should focus on fixing the economy and the educational system so people don't resort to a life of crime instead of trying to recreate "It's a Small World" with racial balancing in our jails.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

which is dumb and stupid assertion. people are in proverty thanks to themselves or their genes.

Genetic predisposition to living in poverty? Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.

[MickMcGeough]

Originally Posted by Gozer

How could I have presented the argument with less bias?

Watering it down?

I'm not going to spend much time on this because you don't seem to want to understand what I'm saying.

The stats and studies stand on their own. When you add summaries and arguments to the presentation of these, you inject bias.

When you inject bias, you invite these personal attacks you're receiving instead of provoking a thoughtful discussion.

I really can't make it simpler than that.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

So you took a snippet quoted in a newspaper out of a book you haven't read and used that to infer a well argued thesis that supports your own biased view.

That's obviously superior to debating the point I brought up, that higher crime rates exist among economically disadvantaged races in countries without private prisons, suggesting the link between private prisons and racial incarceration is probably made up by the tinfoil hat crowd.

You're a little all-over-the-place (partly my fault) and a little adversarial, but I'll try to address your arguments.

-poverty does cause crime. You're not the first to crack that nut.

-how do international incarceration rates (like the one's in the graph I started the thread with) support the assertion that private prisons and incarceration rates are unrelated? Because more poor people get arrested there too?

-I do not oppose improving the educational system, and I am puzzled that you think I do. Do you think it's one-or-the-other?

-"life of crime" is not the factor you think it is. If possessing pot is "a life of crime" then there are a lot of criminals on CP alone.




Finally, you argue that there is racism in the economy, yet continue to harp that there is no racial element when excessively punishing the poor.
How do you harmonize those arguments?

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by MickMcGeough

I'm not going to spend much time on this because you don't seem to want to understand what I'm saying.

I don't know how to present this argument without ruffling feathers.
Again, I am discouraged.
Am I not investing enough time?
Am I too dense to be reasoned with?
Rebuke accepted, though I haven't been personally attacked.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Reaper

Genetic predisposition to living in poverty? Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.

I wouldn't call it a predisposition, was just a nice way of saying something else and YOU'RE WELCOME!

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Gozer

-how do international incarceration rates (like the one's in the graph I started the thread with) support the assertion that private prisons and incarceration rates are unrelated? Because more poor people get arrested there too?

-I do not oppose improving the educational system, and I am puzzled that you think I do. Do you think it's one-or-the-other?

-"life of crime" is not the factor you think it is. If possessing pot is "a life of crime" then there are a lot of criminals on CP alone.

Finally, you argue that there is racism in the economy, yet continue to harp that there is no racial element when excessively punishing the poor.
How do you harmonize those arguments?

You have one data point of a country with private prisons, and argue that the private prisons are increasing incarceration. I think it's just as likely that the US has private prisons BECAUSE they incarcerate so many people. Correlation doesn't prove causation.

As to your next point, you need to read what I'm replying to. I was responding to your assertion that more white people should go to jail. My point was that if the problem is too many black guys in jail, you don't fix that problem by incarcerating more white people. You fix it by solving the underlying causes of that incarceration, which is sub-optimum educational and economic outcomes of Blacks in the US.

I never said there was racism in the economy, I said certain minority groups are economically disadvantaged. That could be a result of historical racism. If your parents were illiterate during the Crowe era, it's much harder to become a professional than if your parents were university educated in a leafy suburb. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist (in the economy or the justice system) since those are all populated by imperfect people. I'm saying your arguments massively overstate the impact of 2 elements: racism in the justice system and the influence of private prisons.

The over-zealous focus on those elements reduce the credibility of the rest of your arguments.

[Ford Prefect]

The War On Drugs is more about whose drugs you're doing than anything else. The gov't wants us to do their drugs, not the street pharm's drugs. If there's a race factor that must mean the blacks are doing more street drugs, and us whitey's are doing the gov's drugs.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

If you dont deal in world of drugs you wont get caught in the war on drugs.

The drug life intices so many because its easy money in a society - white, black, latino, azin, etc who are looking for the quick and easy buck.

The erosion of the American family is the reason for this, not some super secret white suprememsict agenda to lock everyone up. White or Black, if you have money you can massage the judicial system.

WTF? Did you read the OP or did you just see "war on drugs" and decide to make a post? Your post has nothing to do with OP's question or argument.