Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 10-19-2021, 09:07 PM   #161
Lanny_McDonald
Franchise Player
 
Lanny_McDonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizaro86 View Post
Students in general expect a degree to open up a comfortable middle class white collar career.
I'm not going to speak to the expectations of Canadian students, but if they are like American students their expectations may need some serious adjustment. American students really expect to come out of university and be handed a middle manager level job and then to be fast tracked to senior management. The idea of entry level positions is not on their radar. It's crazy.

Quote:
I agree that is an expectations management issue, but I'd comment that if society gets the message that isn't true any more you'll probably have a lot less demand for university from students.
It would also stop universities from just milling paper. It is frustrating to see some of the students that are graduating, because they just cheapen the degree of everyone that came before them. The value of a degree continues to drop because there are too many people with them that don't deserve them. The only way to re-establish the value of a university education is to make it mean something again. It's too easy to get a degree IMO because the schools do not enforce any level of rigor in maintaining the integrity of the coursework and degree itself.
Lanny_McDonald is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Lanny_McDonald For This Useful Post:
Old 10-19-2021, 09:47 PM   #162
GirlySports
NOT breaking news
 
GirlySports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizaro86 View Post
Students in general expect a degree to open up a comfortable middle class white collar career.

I agree that is an expectations management issue, but I'd comment that if society gets the message that isn't true any more you'll probably have a lot less demand for university from students.
As I said, it's starting. Businesses and individuals are finding different ways. What the Universities are going to be left with are International Students, which is already a big problem in itself.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire

GirlySports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2021, 09:29 AM   #163
Lanny_McDonald
Franchise Player
 
Lanny_McDonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlySports View Post
As I said, it's starting. Businesses and individuals are finding different ways. What the Universities are going to be left with are International Students, which is already a big problem in itself.
There is an ebb and flow to education and enrollment. When the job market is good, enrollments tank. When the job market is tight, enrollments are up. We're in a good job market, so enrollments are down.

There is also a cycle to employers going outside the traditional educational requirements for employees. Employers will go this route and be happy with the temporary outcomes because they have the foundation of traditionally educated staff to rely upon. The blend is important as they can act as a driver for each group of employees. At some point the pendulum will swing back the other way because of the benefits that come from going through the grind of earning a degree and the benefits employers get from employees who have spent time in the education crucible, learning discipline and structure.
Lanny_McDonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2021, 01:16 PM   #164
blankall
Ate 100 Treadmills
 
blankall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald View Post
There is an ebb and flow to education and enrollment. When the job market is good, enrollments tank. When the job market is tight, enrollments are up. We're in a good job market, so enrollments are down.

There is also a cycle to employers going outside the traditional educational requirements for employees. Employers will go this route and be happy with the temporary outcomes because they have the foundation of traditionally educated staff to rely upon. The blend is important as they can act as a driver for each group of employees. At some point the pendulum will swing back the other way because of the benefits that come from going through the grind of earning a degree and the benefits employers get from employees who have spent time in the education crucible, learning discipline and structure.

I do think there is more than that going on. I'm seeing a lot of young people taking focused college diploma courses, as opposed to full 4 year bachelor programs. There's also a lot more young people starting their own businesses these days. Overall, it's starting to be more of a hustle initially, instead of the direct get a degree, get a job path.

That seems to be happening with a lot of people with degrees too. Unpaid internships are becoming more and more common. This raises other issues with social mobility, as people with financial support from parents are more likely to be able to take advantage of an unpaid internship opportunity.

A lot of companies are starting to use different models towards hiring too. For example I have friends that work at Expedia. They hire just about everyone for low paying account management type jobs, and then promote the best employees in a pyramid type ladder scheme. I do imaging you'd run into a glass ceiling eventually without a higher level business management degree.
blankall is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to blankall For This Useful Post:
Old 10-20-2021, 02:57 PM   #165
Hack&Lube
Atomic Nerd
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

The only vestige of the recognition of general university degrees is the military where a BA or MA will fast track you into an officer candidate.
Hack&Lube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2021, 04:37 PM   #166
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hack&Lube View Post
The only vestige of the recognition of general university degrees is the military where a BA or MA will fast track you into an officer candidate.
From what I understand, the military is one of the few fields today where a degree in the social sciences or humanities is still valued. Funny, but the military officer class might be the strongest safeguards we have of what used to be considered a classical, cultural education.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
CliffFletcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2021, 05:10 PM   #167
Lanny_McDonald
Franchise Player
 
Lanny_McDonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Exp:
Default

Would one of you fine gentlemen distinguish the difference between a BA and a BSc? Maybe explain the difference between a BA in Information Technology versus a BSc in Information Technology, and why one is supposedly more beneficial than the other.
Lanny_McDonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2021, 07:35 AM   #168
Lanny_McDonald
Franchise Player
 
Lanny_McDonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Exp:
Default

Tick tick tick tick tick....
Lanny_McDonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2021, 07:54 AM   #169
Fuzz
Franchise Player
 
Fuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald View Post
Would one of you fine gentlemen distinguish the difference between a BA and a BSc? Maybe explain the difference between a BA in Information Technology versus a BSc in Information Technology, and why one is supposedly more beneficial than the other.
Don't know about that, but in Geography, you get a BA if you don't take enough courses in math and more of the tech side. So if you take human geography, like studying people and their movements, and less GIS courses, math and stats, you get a BA.


So you won't be doing satellite image analysis with a BA, but you may end up studying urban sprawl.
Fuzz is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Fuzz For This Useful Post:
Old 10-22-2021, 08:04 AM   #170
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald View Post
Would one of you fine gentlemen distinguish the difference between a BA and a BSc? Maybe explain the difference between a BA in Information Technology versus a BSc in Information Technology, and why one is supposedly more beneficial than the other.
Maybe a better question is why are you asking a question you clearly know the answer to.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2021, 09:28 AM   #171
GirlySports
NOT breaking news
 
GirlySports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hack&Lube View Post
Yes, and a product of that is the value-less piece of paper degrees that kids go broke paying for just because it's a bare minimum an employer looks for these days. Often times, just having the university degree means nothing at all since a communications or liberal arts degree doesn't translate to skills an employer looks for.

In the past and when university degrees were uncommon and prestigious, a bachelors degree signified someone had demonstrated the ability to study, commit, and work hard for 4 years to achieve something and that would be reflected in their ability to work for an employer.

Now universities are paper mills, taking in tens of thousands in tuition but having a logical disconnect with industry which makes young students feel disconnected and rudderless when going into the job market.

Yeah, I think kids are beginning to realize this, that they have more options. Say you want to learn python, do you really need a 4 year degree? You can learn on the internet or take the countless number of classes/certificates out there for a few thousand dollars and start working as a freelancer doing projects and building apps. There's an argument that the 4 year degree makes you a move logical and more well-rounded computer programmer, but that's getting less and less relevant.



Or accounting, take an excel and bookkeeping class, and start doing projects. Yes, just like anything, you will need some breaks along the way, but one of my friends has a daughter, 20, and she's already doing payroll for 10 different clients on Upwork. She built her profile for over a year and put in the hours doing tons of little project. Even something simple like,"I need this Excel spreadsheet fixed."A small start up doesn't want to hire a full-time accountant, they just need someone for a few days every month end. So that's all she does, month ends, quarter ends, and year ends, and other odd jobs for clients.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire

GirlySports is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to GirlySports For This Useful Post:
Old 10-22-2021, 09:35 AM   #172
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

As GirlySports points out there are all sorts of ways for people to learn employable skills outside university today. The problem is it’s currently easier for employers to just ask for a degree than to assess the skills of applicants. Online and alternative learning can offer everything except the credentials.

However, if those credentials continue to lose credibility in the eyes of employers, and efficient ways to assess the skills of applicants are developed, universities will be in big trouble.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
CliffFletcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2021, 10:34 AM   #173
bizaro86
Franchise Player
 
bizaro86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
As GirlySports points out there are all sorts of ways for people to learn employable skills outside university today. The problem is it’s currently easier for employers to just ask for a degree than to assess the skills of applicants. Online and alternative learning can offer everything except the credentials.

However, if those credentials continue to lose credibility in the eyes of employers, and efficient ways to assess the skills of applicants are developed, universities will be in big trouble.
I think this is coming in lower bureaucracy/startup companies. I was in talks for a job at a 30 person travel technology firm. The fact that I have an engineering degree never came up. It would have been tangentially related to the role (which was more of a product one than a tech one) but they never asked about my formal education at all, because I have specifically relevant experience.


Ironically the sticking point was they wouldn't allow permanent remote work - needed to relocate to their US office, which was a deal breaker for me.

Last edited by bizaro86; 10-22-2021 at 10:49 AM.
bizaro86 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to bizaro86 For This Useful Post:
Old 10-22-2021, 04:51 PM   #174
Lanny_McDonald
Franchise Player
 
Lanny_McDonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG View Post
Maybe a better question is why are you asking a question you clearly know the answer to.
To shut up morons who don't know what they are talking about. I really get tired about people talking down certain degrees when they have no ####ing idea what they are talking about. If you can't articulate the difference between a BA and BSc, maybe shut the #### up and worry about the failings in your life instead of trying to dream up #### about degrees that can hold as much value as the degree you have. The value of a degree is measured by the individual leveraging that degree, and the institution who is conferred the degree.
Lanny_McDonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2021, 05:45 PM   #175
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald View Post
To shut up morons who don't know what they are talking about. I really get tired about people talking down certain degrees when they have no ####ing idea what they are talking about. If you can't articulate the difference between a BA and BSc, maybe shut the #### up and worry about the failings in your life instead of trying to dream up #### about degrees that can hold as much value as the degree you have. The value of a degree is measured by the individual leveraging that degree, and the institution who is conferred the degree.
Then why not just have the honest argument instead of asking dishonest loaded questions.

Can have as much value and have as much value in aggravate are two significantly different things. If one chooses to use earnings as a proxy for value this is quite clear. Now earnings isn’t a great metric of value but in our society it’s the one we use.

Your final statement misses one key factor just as the institution granting the degree confers certain value regardless of the persons skill level the field a defeee is in confers certain value as well.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2021, 06:03 PM   #176
Lanny_McDonald
Franchise Player
 
Lanny_McDonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG View Post
Then why not just have the honest argument instead of asking dishonest loaded questions.
Because the individuals in question have no interest in honest discussions. They want to feel superior about the degrees they earned and have to #### on others to achieve that means. When you can't even articulate the difference between degrees, that displays the lack of understanding of the larger issue. Also, what was dishonest about the question? If you're going to claim superiority over something shouldn't you have a concise understanding of the criteria that differentiates the two classifications? Asking someone who claims one is better than the other is not a dishonest question. It is actually asking someone to back up their #### and justify their position.

Quote:
Can have as much value and have as much value in aggravate are two significantly different things. If one chooses to use earnings as a proxy for value this is quite clear. Now earnings isn’t a great metric of value but in our society it’s the one we use.
See, this is just dick measuring. There is a lot more to the value of a degree than money earned. Teachers provide a massive lift to society versus - using an example - lawyers, yet lawyers are paid much more money. Does that mean people with law degrees are better than people with education degrees? I don't think so. Lawyers have their purpose in society, but teachers are much more valuable in the bigger picture.

Quote:
Your final statement misses one key factor just as the institution granting the degree confers certain value regardless of the persons skill level the field a defeee is in confers certain value as well.
To a point. Many time society's values are completely ####ed up. How is someone who is educating the future of our society somehow less valuable than the previously identified lawyer, or another example, a stock broker? Who provides more value? Who has more skill? Why do we place more value on something that services so few, but place lesser value on those that develop our future? Society is ####ed up.
Lanny_McDonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2021, 11:03 AM   #177
Azure
Had an idea!
 
Azure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald View Post
To shut up morons who don't know what they are talking about. I really get tired about people talking down certain degrees when they have no ####ing idea what they are talking about. If you can't articulate the difference between a BA and BSc, maybe shut the #### up and worry about the failings in your life instead of trying to dream up #### about degrees that can hold as much value as the degree you have. The value of a degree is measured by the individual leveraging that degree, and the institution who is conferred the degree.
Oh, impending meltdown incoming.

This thread was actually very good until your stupidity started. Seriously, take a chill pill.
Azure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2021, 10:25 AM   #178
Lanny_McDonald
Franchise Player
 
Lanny_McDonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure View Post
Oh, impending meltdown incoming.

This thread was actually very good until your stupidity started. Seriously, take a chill pill.
Retreat Azure. Live to fight another day. You got pantsed in the politics thread and you're looking to get even, but this is not the thread to do that either.

The reason for the question was to subtly make a statement that there was some gaslighting going on in regards to the value of degrees. Some #### was being talked about about stuff that was clearly not understood, and there was some depreciating of the accomplishments of people who have put in work to complete a degree, just like these posters did. All degrees have value and provide opportunity, and people pursue degrees that address an interest they have. Doesn't make them useless, only how they are used makes them useless. The degree doesn't define an individual, their technical abilities, or their potential to be successful. Trying to pigeon hole what degrees are better is dumb, especially when you don't know what differentiates the degrees. What someone does with their degree is a lot more important. An undergrad degree is a key to bettering one's place in life. What is done with that degree will determine the value of the degree, not some ridiculous belief that one degree is more valuable than another.

Last edited by Lanny_McDonald; 10-24-2021 at 11:33 AM.
Lanny_McDonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2021, 01:37 PM   #179
Coach
Franchise Player
 
Coach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Vancouver
Exp:
Default

I have a BA. In Economics. I had to take stats and math courses all the way through to my final years. I know the value of what I learned. But it does irk me that my degree says Bachelor of Arts not Bachelor of Science. I did a lot of f***in math for an arts degree. But that’s just what the school I was in offered. Apparently some schools offer Econ degrees as BSc. U of C didn’t at the time. When I started they did, (if you took enough science/math electives) but that program changed part way through.
__________________
Coach is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2021, 01:46 PM   #180
blankall
Ate 100 Treadmills
 
blankall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach View Post
I have a BA. In Economics. I had to take stats and math courses all the way through to my final years. I know the value of what I learned. But it does irk me that my degree says Bachelor of Arts not Bachelor of Science. I did a lot of f***in math for an arts degree. But that’s just what the school I was in offered. Apparently some schools offer Econ degrees as BSc. U of C didn’t at the time. When I started they did, (if you took enough science/math electives) but that program changed part way through.
Econ is definitely not a hard science degree. As someone with a biology degree, I'm equally irked about the watering down of the BSc.

I don't think there's anything lesser with an arts degree, but it is a different style of training and education. A lot of people associate all arts degrees with the plethora of students graduating with psych/sociology/antro/etc.... Degrees. These degrees can be valuable too, but are generally much easier to again and where students who fail out of other degrees end up. They have a bit of a bad stigma, which I think could be corrected if universities began limiting enrollment in these subjects. Once again I'd like to see more centralized control from the government here. Particularly if the government is going to continue subsidizing these courses so heavily.
blankall is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:37 AM.

Calgary Flames
2023-24




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021