Ring Road To Nowhere

[Calgary14]

Why on earth are they doing that on NB macleod? It seemed fine before and I thought they were done

[Acey]

Must have failed some kind of quality audit. Part of the risk you run scheduling construction activities in the last week on a 4 year timeline.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Acey

Must have failed some kind of quality audit. Part of the risk you run scheduling construction activities in the last week on a 4 year timeline.

So would this re-work mean that it wasn't done by the oct 1st deadline and subject to daily fines?

[Acey]

Originally Posted by Robbob

So would this re-work mean that it wasn't done by the oct 1st deadline and subject to daily fines?

Perhaps, but main traffic availability was achieved so they could be taking some kind of hit for just this section they had to repave, or maybe it was good enough to open but had to be re-done in the immediate short term, or AB Transportation waived it and just let them re-do it in due course... hard to say. The penalties aren't all or nothing. If they're only now doing it 16 days after opening I doubt they've been taking a daily hit for the last 16 days.

[Acey]

The Tsuut'ina chief has, in a statement, essentially condemned the remarks made by Seth Cardinal Dodginghorse at the podium on opening day.

"Mr. Cardinal has also intimated that his family was treated unfairly and that family members were evicted and made homeless. This is simply untrue. Each citizen of the Tsuut’ina Nation that was affected by the transfer of land was financially compensated. Where citizens had to be relocated, citizens were built new houses."

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/tsuut-ina...road-1.5629687

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Acey

The Tsuut'ina chief has, in a statement, essentially condemned the remarks made by Seth Cardinal Dodginghorse at the podium on opening day.



https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/tsuut-ina...road-1.5629687

IIRC isn't there an issue of that man and/or his family's 'citizenship'? ie. parents or grandparents were from different bands...they are technically 'citizens' of another band but live in Tsuut'ina?

[Acey]

Yes, there are quite a few issues with this. The bottom line is that they voted for it and unless it's unanimous, some people are going to be upset.

[rohara66]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

I looked on Google Street View and couldn't see what the issue was. The signs seem to be right over the exit points, and the WB to SB movement really is dead straight at both exits.

Here's a link to the first sign, and here's a link to the second sign.

The issue is that when you're driving this stretch of road you can't see that that lane split is coming up, especially if there is a vehicle in front of you. So you make a quick right at the last second.






Why they didn't have angled arrow or something to show that the lane is splitting is odd to me. I dunno, I've take that exit twice and nearly missed it both times, despite knowing the second time that is was whack.



I feel like I'm a good driver... but maybe I'm missing something LOL, I dunno.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by rohara66

The issue is that when you're driving this stretch of road you can't see that that lane split is coming up, especially if there is a vehicle in front of you. So you make a quick right at the last second.

Why they didn't have angled arrow or something to show that the lane is splitting is odd to me. I dunno, I've take that exit twice and nearly missed it both times, despite knowing the second time that is was whack.



I feel like I'm a good driver... but maybe I'm missing something LOL, I dunno.

I'd say you are missing the exit.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by rohara66

The issue is that when you're driving this stretch of road you can't see that that lane split is coming up, especially if there is a vehicle in front of you. So you make a quick right at the last second.

To be a little technical, looking at Google street view it looks like the profile of the road has a crest curve right before the exit which might obscure the paint on the road for the exit. The design standards for ring road projects are almost excessive, so I would assume the K value for the crest curve should more than satisfy the decision sight distance requirements for 90 km/h design speed, but I can see how that could affect your ability to judge what to do. Sight distance checks are usually done at taillight height or debris height. Tough to know what was checked here without having the design drawings.

However, what you're describing is a pretty typical issue at most major forks - called that for the "split" instead of a typical exit because the traffic volumes for both directions are similar. Even ones that have great visibility (such as after a sag curve or on an uphill grade) seem to throw off drivers. It's tough to fully explain in a couple sentences, but the long story short is that major forks are very generous on their angles, and usually have significant advanced signage as well. We have quite a few in Calgary - SB Deerfoot at Anderson/Bow Bottom, WB Stoney at Deerfoot South, NB Stoney at Glenmore West, and this one on WB Glenmore at Stoney West. IIRC, there's also one going in on EB 16th Avenue approaching Stoney West right now.

The main culprit? Most people don't read or can't comprehend the signs beforehand. The exit at all major forks are complex by nature, and the signs beforehand should theoretically tell you about the angling away you're looking for. Here's the one that details that.

Is there a better way to do it? Probably. The risk in getting more granular (arrows angling, pointing, etc for each lane) is that it makes a complicated sign even larger and more complicated. Reading time is a big issue, and the more symbols you need to interpret, the more time it takes for you to understand and react to those symbols. The method used in Alberta draws a picture that represents the exit, in theory.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by rohara66

The issue is that when you're driving this stretch of road you can't see that that lane split is coming up, especially if there is a vehicle in front of you. So you make a quick right at the last second.






Why they didn't have angled arrow or something to show that the lane is splitting is odd to me. I dunno, I've take that exit twice and nearly missed it both times, despite knowing the second time that is was whack.



I feel like I'm a good driver... but maybe I'm missing something LOL, I dunno.

I find the lane splits non intuitive. I know the design standard is to have the middle one split like tha rather than have dedicated lanes or dashed lines but for me the change in how these look relative to normal exits means I have to pay attention.

I think it’s because your decision time seems shorter. Normally a lane being created at an exit as a branching dashed line so I see it get wider and enter the lane as it slowly widens. These lane splits the lanes get wider which for me doesn’t get picked up as something happening. Then the first road marking for the split is the split itself so it’s a much shorter time to decide. So for me there is more mental energy in navigating that type of lane split.

On the other hand not having dashed lines and an exit likely improves speed through the split as when exiting people slow down. It also discourages late moves which on a full speed split like that are dangerous. So probably a lot of good reasons behind why it’s done the way it’s done.

It just doesn’t work with my brain.

[Fuzz]

The nice part is that the split distance is short, so there is no concern of causing an accident suddenly changing your direction. You have to pick left or right, and you will be doing that in a safe area.

[powderjunkie]

The best little tweak I could see would be to make the NORTH or WEST or SOUTH a bit more prominent on the signs, but I'm sure in many other situations the road name is more important.

[rohara66]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I'd say you are missing the exit.

Zing!


Technically I didn't miss it either time... maybe I'll take it home tonight just to see how it feels for a third time.

[rohara66]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

The main culprit? Most people don't read or can't comprehend the signs beforehand. The exit at all major forks are complex by nature, and the signs beforehand should theoretically tell you about the angling away you're looking for. Here's the one that details that.

Exactly the type of sign I would have thought should have been here.But yea its harder to read I suppose.



I actually checked Deerfoot SB at Anderson (as it has a similar split) and its signed the same as this location we're talking about. Guess thats never been an issue for me as I've taken the Anderson exit there, always heading south on Deerfoot.

[TorqueDog]

I think the big issue is that the road was Glenmore > Sarcee for the longest time with a turn-off to continue onto Hwy 8.

Now the most direct path is Glenmore -> Stoney West and Sarcee is an exit. Old habits die hard. More / better signage in advance of the exit IMO (like putting signage on the 37 St bridge) would get people to move over to the appropriate right-most lanes ahead of time instead of seeing people randomly fly right across three lanes.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

More / better signage in advance of the exit IMO (like putting signage on the 37 St bridge) would get people to move over to the appropriate right-most lanes ahead of time instead of seeing people randomly fly right across three lanes.

There's already a copy of the advance sign at the 37th Street exit.

[rohara66]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

There's already a copy of the advance sign at the 37th Street exit.

And that sign shows the right 'exiting' and not 'splitting' haha.

[powderjunkie]

It shows 5 lanes splitting into 6 via the middle lane...

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

There's already a copy of the advance sign at the 37th Street exit.

Yeah, I know, but my opinion of most motorists I share the road with is that they are mindless twats who have the memory of gnats. That sign being placed at the 37 St exit is probably forgotten by the time they round the corner because there's too much going on for them to process. The signage needs "THESE LANES" signs with arrows stuck to the bottom indicating which lanes go to Sarcee and which lanes are Stoney.