Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi - Discussion Thread

[direwolf]

Originally Posted by #-3

Snoke dying was required to move Kylo from a bottom rung Star Wars villain to a top tier one. That moment after the big fight when Rey peps up and says now lets go save the day, then her face as she realizes that isn't the story shes in, and Kylo finally voicing this allusive motivation of the Sith in a way you can believe.

Agreed, I thought that scene was really well done, and both actors were fantastic.

[GGG]

Why do we think that Luke was going to kill Kylo? Luke has the would you kill Hitler as a child decision and he couldn’t do it. He considers it but can’t.

To me this is well within his character. His father was responsible for the murder of millions after being trained when he was too old. In the same way Ben and Leia sent Ben after Snoke had begun to influence him. So Luke is asked would you kill Hitler, he decides no he can’t do it and then REN wakes up.

Luke’s weakness is fear of the darkside. A fear of Lord Vader and after all of these years still has not conquered it. Luke being a flawed failed Jedi is a reasonable outcome for a farm kid forced into war and dealing with the fact his father was a genocidal monster who was redeemed. The conflict between seeing the light and being afraid of the Dark both within himself and others informs the action we he looks into Rens mind and sees his future.

The conclusion of skywalker was also apparently based on George Lucas notes and not a Rian Johnson original take. It’s a great end to his arc as a tragic hero

[blankall]

Originally Posted by #-3

Why assume a movie is bad or incoherent just because it did something you didn't expect?

It's a very ungenerous interpretation of the film. Having your expectations and assumptions about the future upended in itself is not a bad thing, as I said I actually quite enjoyed the subversion of expectation.

Snoke dying was required to move Kylo from a bottom rung Star Wars villain to a top tier one. That moment after the big fight when Rey peps up and says now lets go save the day, then her face as she realizes that isn't the story shes in, and Kylo finally voicing this allusive motivation of the Sith in a way you can believe. It's really the best moment in Star Wars for me. It just blows me away that people hate the death of Snoke because its not the story they expected.

Planned or not I'm pretty excited to see what they do with Kylo as a character that looked redemption in the face and turned away from it, now we know this isn't the Darth Vader story, where in the last moment the character will find their way back to the light side through compassion for someone else.

I disagree with all of this. It wasn't that the movie didn't match my expectations, it was that it full on abandoned the storylines established in TFA.

I sincerely doubt that when JJ Abrams was writing TFA and building his world, he meant for all the storylines he'd established with Phasma, Snoke, Rey, Luke, the First Order etc.. to end up being total dead ends. When Johnson took over he clearly decided to pull a 180 and start a new storyline. He abandoned several storylines for the sake of being clever. Unfortunately it didn't resonate with a lot of people. When you're putting out a trilogy, the typical goal is to have it flow as 3 movies, not have 1 movie and then completely reboot things at movie 2.

And no Snoke did not have to die to move Ren's character forward. Ren's limitations are self-imposed. Regardless of whether there's someone above him or not, he's going to have to struggle with and overcome his own head. I do agree that the Ren bits were the strongest part of the movie, however. If you can strip away the awkwardness of Johnson's film making (Ren could have come to many of his realizations with a shirt on), you actually have a solid story there. It's the other 95% of the screen time in the film that doesn't make any sense.

Johnson also didn't really add all that much to Ren's character. It was JJ Abrams who established him. He remains the angsty apprentice who isn't really sure what path he wants to walk down. Killing Snoke was less dramatic and character changing than killing his own father, Han Solo, was.

EDIT:

Johnson has already confirmed that there was no pre-planned story in place:

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-8-r...planned-story/

Huge mistake for a trilogy.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GGG

The conclusion of skywalker was also apparently based on George Lucas notes and not a Rian Johnson original take. It’s a great end to his arc as a tragic hero

This is absolutely not true. Lucas envisioned Luke dying at the end of chapter 9, in some grand finale. His original vision for the 3rd trilogy was far more focused around Luke, with the 3 trilogies flowing from start to end as a story about the Skywalkers:

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-9-g...r-mark-hamill/

[Locke]

Originally Posted by blankall

This is absolutely not true. Lucas envisioned Luke dying at the end of chapter 9, in some grand finale. His original vision for the 3rd trilogy was far more focused around Luke, with the 3 trilogies flowing from start to end as a story about the Skywalkers:

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-9-g...r-mark-hamill/

Yeah, but in fairness that was a long time ago.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Locke

Yeah, but in fairness that was a long time ago.

I don't disagree. But stating that the direction taken with Luke in TLJ was part of Lucas' plan is false.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by blankall

I disagree with all of this. It wasn't that the movie didn't match my expectations, it was that it full on abandoned the storylines established in TFA.

I sincerely doubt that when JJ Abrams was writing TFA and building his world, he meant for all the storylines he'd established with Phasma, Snoke, Rey, Luke, the First Order etc.. to end up being total dead ends. When Johnson took over he clearly decided to pull a 180 and start a new storyline. He abandoned several storylines for the sake of being clever. Unfortunately it didn't resonate with a lot of people. When you're putting out a trilogy, the typical goal is to have it flow as 3 movies, not have 1 movie and then completely reboot things at movie 2.

And no Snoke did not have to die to move Ren's character forward. Ren's limitations are self-imposed. Regardless of whether there's someone above him or not, he's going to have to struggle with and overcome his own head. I do agree that the Ren bits were the strongest part of the movie, however. If you can strip away the awkwardness of Johnson's film making (Ren could have come to many of his realizations with a shirt on), you actually have a solid story there. It's the other 95% of the screen time in the film that doesn't make any sense.

Johnson also didn't really add all that much to Ren's character. It was JJ Abrams who established him. He remains the angsty apprentice who isn't really sure what path he wants to walk down. Killing Snoke was less dramatic and character changing than killing his own father, Han Solo, was.

EDIT:

Johnson has already confirmed that there was no pre-planned story in place:

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-8-r...planned-story/

Huge mistake for a trilogy.

I just disagree with the idea that their was some sacred story line intended by Abrams that needed to be followed, and even if their was I disagree with the conception that you know what it was.

Phasma sucked in both movies, arguably the biggest mistake was bringing her back at all. But then it would been another one of JJs brilliant ideas that Rian ruined for you.

I don't think anyone has explained to me why Reys parents and Snoke hold this special mantel of being so vital to the story. This was never meant to be the story explaining who Snoke was, even in the conception of TFA. This trilogy is the story a renewed struggle between Rey the latest manifestation of light and Ren the latest manifestation of Dark. Snoke was simply a foil to mirror some recognizable from 40 years ago. In terms of fantasy world building it is not only OK, but I think it is a good thing to have large events happen out of frame. The rise of Snoke and the First Order tells us that the world did not stop between 1983 & 2017, that big important events influencing the world we are now witnessing happened.

Luke is absolutely in the mold of his mentors, the failed desire to cleanse the world of darkness, running and hiding in a hut rather than facing down defeat. And I don't really understand what his character was supposed to do at the beginning of this movie. "Hello Rey, I've sat here on the sidelines waiting until after my nephew and his band of misfits murdered billions of people, so I could train some scavenger girl to fight the fight that I wouldn't". No we was going to do the same thing Yoda did, "I'm hiding because we lost, it's pointless to try, your too old". that is perfectly within the frame of what Star Wars should have told us to expect, the fact that we didn't is more revealing of our biases that Johnsson.

Aside from possibly being a war weary and smaller group, I don't see what changed about the first order in this movie. That's a problem that Star Wars has been happy to write away between movies in the past. The First Order or the Resistance losing their entire fleet will likely be erased in the opening crawl of IX, and typical for Star Wars.

For me Ren personality was singularly the worst part of TFA, and he was transformed into one of the great Star Wars villains in this movie. I'm actually sympathetic to allot of the other things people complain about in this movie, I just think its unfair to expect the movie to cater to your personal fantasies and I am happy to enjoy it for what it is. But I don't think there is a credible argument that Ren did not experience a major character arc between the end of TFA & TLJ, maybe you didn't enjoy the character arc, but I did. As I said, the moment when he asks Rey to join him in establishing a new galactic order was a rare character payoff you seldom ever see in villains, and that required the connection he built with Rey, betrayal of Snoke, the joint fight against the Supreme Leaders guard, and the utter desolation of the resistance. Without all of that, the moment would have been less.

[CaptainCrunch]

New episode IX leak points to Rey's possible father


https://www.express.co.uk/entertainm...ode-ix-Obi-Wan

Spoiler!

Now there's a lot of speculation that JJ is going to cure some of the scripting errors from Episode VIII and try to get some story lines back on track, Rey's origins being one of them.


While the above hints at someone like Qui-Gon, I have my doubts that her father if he is revealed is anything but an unknown Jedi who survived Order 66 and hid on Jaku and left her to rejoin Luke's Jedi order.


I still like the theory that Rey is somehow linked to Palpatine and she is going to be the last jedi and last force user and will combine elements of the Dark and Light Side of the Force.


I've always wondered what would have happened if Palpatine had been found as the Jedi and trained as a Child. I mean I still think that while Anakin was the chosen one in theory, that Palpatine was a true expression of the Dark Side of the Force to the point where he was the Dark Side of the Force.


But can you imagine how powerful of a Jedi he would have been? Or would he have been destined to eventually walk down the Dark Path?

[CaptainCrunch]

Disney might be dumping Rian Johnson's trilogy and putting their weight into the Star Wars movies made by the game of throne creators.

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Disney might be dumping Rian Johnson's trilogy and putting their weight into the Star Wars movies made by the game of throne creators.

Oh please, pleaes be true. Episode 8 was a jumbled mess, at outlined above, this man should not be allowed anywhere near Star Wars again.

I have a lot of faith in the GoT creators though... well as long as there is some sort of source material. After that it might turn into a 90's Arnold/Stallone style action movie. 'HEY IM THAT GUYS BASTARD LETS BE NORTH FRIENDS OH BTW I CAN RUN REALLY FAR AND AM AWESOME WITH THIS HAMMER ALL OF A SUDDEN JUST LIKE MY DAD WAS' etc..

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Disney might be dumping Rian Johnson's trilogy and putting their weight into the Star Wars movies made by the game of throne creators.

Oh mah gawd yes please. I cannot imagine a better pair of writers to bring balance back to the force.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

Oh please, pleaes be true. Episode 8 was a jumbled mess, at outlined above, this man should not be allowed anywhere near Star Wars again.

I have a lot of faith in the GoT creators though... well as long as there is some sort of source material. After that it might turn into a 90's Arnold/Stallone style action movie. 'HEY IM THAT GUYS BASTARD LETS BE NORTH FRIENDS OH BTW I CAN RUN REALLY FAR AND AM AWESOME WITH THIS HAMMER ALL OF A SUDDEN JUST LIKE MY DAD WAS' etc..

But there is no source material for any new trilogy.

I think people need to remember B&W didn’t write/direct every episode of GoT. They did a great adaptation of 3 or 4 books and then the quality fell off a cliff when their source material ran out. Let’s also not forget Benioff wrote Xmen Origins Wolverine.

I’m interested to see what they do but they are far from a sure thing.

[GreenLantern]

I did not know that about Origins, my faith is destroyed.

[Locke]

They need to get the people who did Infinity War to helm the next Star Wars Trilogy.

Those guys killed it.

[getbak]

Taika Waititi has signed on to direct one of the episodes of The Mandalorian, so that's one step closer to getting MCU people involved in the SW universe.

[Oling_Roachinen]

They need to have Korg in the background handing out flyers in that episode.

[blankall]

Disney just needs to do what they did with Rogue one and TFA and not that they did with TLJ.

[White Out 403]

they need to make a new trilogy totally separate of this age and base it entirely on the knights of the old republic video games.

[Muta]

There's a preview tonight on Showcase of Star Wars: Resistance if anyone is interested!

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwiliger

But there is no source material for any new trilogy.

How dare you!