Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Stay Golden]

Originally Posted by Dion

I watched the King presser and he came across as being condesending, sarcastic and at times tried to play the woe is me card that had me laughing. Worse for me was the implying of facts that are not true.

I also laughed at his comments regarding the land being a part of the deal. If you own a house and it's all paid for, how does it not have a value? King seemed to bent on belittling everything the city was offering in the deal. He looked like an idiot.

Kking should have been dumped long ago he is a weak representation of the Flames regarding business. He was even worse when it was discussing hockey operation. The guy is a lead balloon.

[dre]

Both sides want to make money off of our backs.

[Gaudfather]

King should reflect on the hockey phrase " earned, not given" from a couple of years ago.

It seems like CSEC wants to be "given" a new arena deal and wants to do very little to " earn it"!

[Reggie Dunlop]

By trotting out Bettman and Daly, CSEC overplayed their hand. Council can call their bluff.

Counter strategy would be to make a civic fieldhouse(s) an election pledge. Not entirely convinced one mega-sized fieldhouse in the city core is the solution.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

Of course you don't see that "more" construction jobs are created and of course like so many you think these 5135 jobs were all just exclusivly construction.

The article you linked was based on construction jobs, so yes that's what I would assume you were talking about.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

Kking should have been dumped long ago he is a weak representation of the Flames regarding business. He was even worse when it was discussing hockey operation. The guy is a lead balloon.

Making threats is not how you gain public approval. He would like everyone to believe that talks are over, which is far from the truth. I doubt he won much if any public sympathy for the ownership group with his presser.

[You Need a Thneed]

The number of construction jobs would be the same no matter how it's paid for.

Also, if no arena is built, the city money would get allotted to some other infrastructure project, which would also create construction jobs.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Gaudfather

King should reflect on the hockey phrase " earned, not given" from a couple of years ago.

It seems like CSEC wants to be "given" a new arena deal and wants to do very little to " earn it"!

More like the city should take all the risks. We don't want to pay for any upkeep that comes from property taxes.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

In no way did i even make any comment or comparision that public funded arena would produce more construction jobs than a privately funded arena.

You said this
Of course you don't see that "more" construction jobs are created...

In response to this

Those construction jobs happen regardless of how the arena is paid for.


What else is there to be inferred from that?

People weren't denying the value of the jobs, just that public money wasn't essential to have them, and can also be paid for with any public project, not just an arena one.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

You said this
Of course you don't see that "more" construction jobs are created...

In response to this

Those construction jobs happen regardless of how the arena is paid for.


What else is there to be inferred from that?

People weren't denying the value of the jobs, just that public money wasn't essential to have them, and can also be paid for with any public project, not just an arena one.

Since the Flames no longer want a new arena, perhaps we can use that money for the field house near the U of C. The would certainly create jobs, and provide a real community benefit.

[ZedMan]

Originally Posted by dre

Both sides want to make money off of our backs.

The municipal government wants to make money off our backs?

[GGG]

And if economic stimulus is what you are after throwing money out a window has a larger multiplier than building an arena.

[dre]

Originally Posted by ZedMan

The municipal government wants to make money off our backs?

No, they want us to donate.

[Benched]

I decided to watch it....

To me it all comes down to

A) City wants tangible financial repayment via taxes/rent
B) CSEC believes that their arena, and being in the area, IS the repayment. They encourage businesses to come near them, build there, and THEY pay taxes, that's the repayment.


I'm skeptical on an arena being built = businesses flock to join the arena. Lots of debate on this, not going to get into it.

But I have an issue with the notion that subsequent nearby businesses paying taxes is repayment from the Flames/arena. They're claiming other businesses seeing an opportunity in the area as their success. So I guess if a business fails in the area, CSEC will pay their taxes or owe the city money?



KK had a line about 'what is repayment? is it social? financial?'. The Flames seem to think it is Social, their presence = payment. The City seems to think money is money, and it's financial.

I'm on the cities side here. And until they can work out basic expectations and verbiage, this thing is miles apart.

[Stay Golden]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

The article you linked was based on construction jobs, so yes that's what I would assume you were talking about.

The only reason I linked that article is because I stated 5135 jobs and I have been a C.F. member long enough to know there is going to at least a handful of smartass's that would act like crybabies 5135 where did you get that number from bla bla bla. Where is the link bla bla bla.
That is the ONLY reason I linked that arctle because it had a number of how many jobs during the construction of Rogers. Thats it nothing more but of course guys just like to squabble about petty things and nitpicking like little children.

I almost want the Flames to pack up and move just to put some fans in check. Just ask a hometown Oakland Raider fan or a SD Charger fan how they felt about how quickly their team packed up and left.

Nenshi is grandstanding and the Flames are grandstanding but one thing is absolutely certain if they can't come to an agreement the Flames will eventually leave. When they decide to go in that direction it will gain traction and happen a lot quicker than you think.

[GGG]

Anyone want to bet that Bonderman and Bruckheimer are seen talking to the flames or Rdwards at some point prior to the municipal election? Got to crank that relocation threat up.

[getbak]

I like the idea of free transit for ticket holders. However, it shouldn't come at the city's expense. It should be funded similar to the UPass for post-secondary students.

I think the UPass is a brilliant solution. Charge everyone for a transit pass, whether they use it or not, and charge a lower price to each person than you did when you sold a student pass alone and bring in the same amount of money doing so.

For large-scale events at the Saddledome or McMahon or any other big venue, add a small $2 (or so) surcharge to every ticket sold and allow everyone to use their ticket as a transit pass for the day of the event. CT would bring in the same amount of money they do now and fare enforcement wouldn't need to be done (in 30+ years of riding the CTrain to Flames games, I don't think I've ever had my ticket checked after a game).

It also encourages transit usage, which benefits everyone, even if they chose to drive to the game. If you asked anyone sitting in traffic after a game if they'd be willing to pay $2 to get rid of 25% of the vehicles in front of them, you'd have a lot of people gladly handing over their toonies.

[OldDutch]

The best thing the Flames can do at this point is wait for Nenshi to get voted out. Along with every other member of council.

Or they can go on a regular season tear and Cinderella run igniting civic pride and forcing the Cities hand.

Given the Flames track record both seem unlikely.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

I almost want the Flames to pack up and move just to put some fans in check. Just ask a hometown Oakland Raider fan or a SD Charger fan how they felt about how quickly their team packed up and left.

Nenshi is grandstanding and the Flames are grandstanding but one thing is absolutely certain if they can't come to an agreement the Flames will eventually leave. When they decide to go in that direction it will gain traction and happen a lot quicker than you think.

Problem for me is where would the Flames go and would that market have greater fan support. Seattle is a basketball city and fans would flock to see their Sonics before they shell out out bucks to see the Flames. Then you have multiple American teams that are struggling to fill their arenas and make a profit.

If the Flames were going to move they would have done it long ago. That's my belief. Frankly I think the owners know they have a great hockey market in Calgary and will do whatever it takes to make a deal and it will get done.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by GGG

Anyone want to bet that Bonderman and Bruckheimer are seen talking to the flames or Rdwards at some point prior to the municipal election? Got to crank that relocation threat up.

I seriously doubt, they'd want to be part of this gong show. They're smart enough to know how ridiculous the idea of the Flames moving is and I'm sure they wouldn't want any part of the Flames blustering.
Now, if you asked me about the possibility of King flying down to Seattle and making a grand spectacle of himself there to draw attention to his visit...