[News] Ken King: Flames' owners no longer pursuing new arena with City of Calgary

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

Ad hominem attacks on a public personage who is doing his job are both vile and have no place in a public debate. Please stop.

Gee, a personal attack on a politician? You're right, that's totally beyond the pale. Nobody ever did that before.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by OmegaV4

Question.

If no team here, why need new arena?

You can't earn that "World Class City" badge without one.

[OmegaV4]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

You can't earn that "World Class City" badge without one.

I suppose. Still trying to wrap my head around the concept of "We have a state of the art arena...forrrrrr......someone I'm sure..."

[Calgary14]

If they're wanting to leave, could they leave before the start of the upcoming season?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Here's a different perspective on all of this. I know, surprise, surprise.

What is lost in all of this vitriol is the acknowledgement that this boils down to the Flames vision versus Nenshi's vision. That's really what this is all about, and what Nenshi's little announcement was all about. This is about who has the right to guide the development of the future Calgary entertainment district. Whose legacy is this going to be? Is it going to be the Flames ownership group, or is it going to be Nenshi's?

The Flames put forward a comprehensive plan to address the redevelopment of the West Villiage, which would include a new arena, a new fieldhouse/football stadium, a new entertainment district, and then riverfront condominium development. This is where the Flames ownership interest likely was mostly focused, getting involved in the development aspects here and making their money in the real estate. Like it or not, it was a comprehensive plan that addressed the overarching needs of CSEC. There were more than enough pimples on this face, but it was a point for negotiation.

Conversely, Nenshi's vision was different. He wants to be remembered for the East Village and the cleanup of Victoria Park. He has proposed an equally flawed plan that really doesn't make much sense in the bigger picture. I really don't see a plan here, other than shoe-horning an arena in a spot that will keep the Stampede Board happy, with land swaps, and fill in space in the East Village. Seriously, what is a business incubator doing in the heart of the supposed "entertainment district? And what entertainment district zig-zags its way through downtown, including crossing the train track right of way? You want to talk about a flawed design? This is it. Compare this to some of the latest and best designs around world. How can anyone suggest this was a serious plan?

Nenshi said it himself. "The arena is not the issue, the issue is East downtown, the issue is creating a cultural and entertainment district in East downtown, which requires many many ingredients and many many pieces." But many of those pieces don't fit, nor are really close to each other. This was not a good plan either, and I suspect Nenshi knew that.

So while the Flames play the bad guy here, suggesting the City was not being responsive in a timely manner, I think the out-going Mayor can speak for himself. "We're in no rush, the issue here is to get this exactly right for Calgarians," said Nenshi. No, I think the issue here is Nenshi delivering on his vision and ensuring his political legacy. This is not about doing right by those have been and continue to invest in Calgary, this is clear politicking and a desire to establish a legacy.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Care to articulate the blame to be placed on our mayor? Frankly he's the lesser of two evils right now.

I'm not sure why looking out for citizens own best long-term financial interests is even considered any sort of evil. Isn't this what we want from our elected leaders?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by nik-

The funniest thing about this is the people who are most likely to call Nenshi "spendshi" and hate him for the spending his does are probably some of the hardest on him for actually trying to not let the taxpayers of this city get bent over like they do in other cities on arena deals.

Fandom erases all conservative principles I guess.

I mentioned this in one of the various other threads, but sports is such a weird one in terms of how it fries people's brains. Estrada and New Era are total polar opposites politically, yet they both support basically as much public money as it takes to build this thing. It really does blind people and make them betray core principles.

And, as I've mentioned far too many times, people are begging for what amounts to quasi corporate welfare, in exchange for a 100% guaranteed price increase of at least 20% on a product that will, being as generous as conceivably possible, maybe be 5% different. And that that 5% could also mean worse. Just insanity.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I'm not sure why looking out for citizens own best long-term financial interests is even considered any sort of evil. Isn't this what we want from our elected leaders?

It is. He's not really even an evil, but he's a politician so there will be those who just knock him because.

Frankly I think he's doing a great job on this whole ordeal.

[Puppet Guy]

Okay, you know when HE'S this mad that something's terribly wrong...

Spoiler!

[OmegaV4]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I'm not sure why looking out for citizens own best long-term financial interests is even considered any sort of evil. Isn't this what we want from our elected leaders?

By "long-term financial interests" you wouldn't mean the giant Blue Ring or Bowfort Towers, would you?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by OmegaV4

By "long-term financial interests" you wouldn't mean the giant Blue Ring or Bowfort Towers, would you?

we spent 500k, might as well spend half a billion?

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Frankly, all Nenshi needs to do is keep doing what he has been doing. Anyone with any sense can see that CSEC has gone loony.

Yeah it seems like the wrong move at the wrong time by two of the worst people to pick to win the hearts and minds of Calgarians (King and Bettman? Not exactly a dynamic duo of charisma).

The 'we won't threaten to move, we will just move. But I'm just saying that if we don't get an arena deal then we will move' was bad enough, but surely people will see how terribly transparent this one is.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by OmegaV4

By "long-term financial interests" you wouldn't mean the giant Blue Ring or Bowfort Towers, would you?

Having a public art program certainly is long term planning, absolutely.

[Scornfire]

Originally Posted by OmegaV4

By "long-term financial interests" you wouldn't mean the giant Blue Ring or Bowfort Towers, would you?

Are you under the impression the mayor signs off on literally everything?

[Lanny_McDonald]

One last thing to consider here, and it is a scary thought, does Murray Edwards have a little more insight on the direction of the Calgary economy? Maybe he knows the days of oil are coming to a close and is not willing to roll the dice on the Calgary economy diversifying in any substantial way so it could support a team any longer?

[Stay Golden]

How can anyone be surprised the Flames no longer have interest in a new arena. They were only interested if they could successfully manipulate the city province and federal gov into gifting them 80% of a new arena.
Just like nobody should be surprised when Nenshi says the city is no longer interested in pursuing an olympic bid.
Nenshi will never have any serious interest contributing to either.
As for the arena talk both sides were unreasonable with each other right from the beginning until the end.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by New Era

Here's a different perspective on all of this. I know, surprise, surprise.

What is lost in all of this vitriol is the acknowledgement that this boils down to the Flames vision versus Nenshi's vision. That's really what this is all about, and what Nenshi's little announcement was all about. This is about who has the right to guide the development of the future Calgary entertainment district. Whose legacy is this going to be? Is it going to be the Flames ownership group, or is it going to be Nenshi's?

The Flames put forward a comprehensive plan to address the redevelopment of the West Villiage, which would include a new arena, a new fieldhouse/football stadium, a new entertainment district, and then riverfront condominium development. This is where the Flames ownership interest likely was mostly focused, getting involved in the development aspects here and making their money in the real estate. Like it or not, it was a comprehensive plan that addressed the overarching needs of CSEC. There were more than enough pimples on this face, but it was a point for negotiation.

Conversely, Nenshi's vision was different. He wants to be remembered for the East Village and the cleanup of Victoria Park. He has proposed an equally flawed plan that really doesn't make much sense in the bigger picture. I really don't see a plan here, other than shoe-horning an arena in a spot that will keep the Stampede Board happy, with land swaps, and fill in space in the East Village. Seriously, what is a business incubator doing in the heart of the supposed "entertainment district? And what entertainment district zig-zags its way through downtown, including crossing the train track right of way? You want to talk about a flawed design? This is it. Compare this to some of the latest and best designs around world. How can anyone suggest this was a serious plan?

Nenshi said it himself. "The arena is not the issue, the issue is East downtown, the issue is creating a cultural and entertainment district in East downtown, which requires many many ingredients and many many pieces." But many of those pieces don't fit, nor are really close to each other. This was not a good plan either, and I suspect Nenshi knew that.

So while the Flames play the bad guy here, suggesting the City was not being responsive in a timely manner, I think the out-going Mayor can speak for himself. "We're in no rush, the issue here is to get this exactly right for Calgarians," said Nenshi. No, I think the issue here is Nenshi delivering on his vision and ensuring his political legacy. This is not about doing right by those have been and continue to invest in Calgary, this is clear politicking and a desire to establish a legacy.

Victoria Park and East Village make perfect sense. It's by casinos, 2 LRT lines, new condos and bars and restaurants. We simply cannot have an arena that is placed in a re-development area because the core is currently over developed. It needs to be put in a place that is currently being developed to push that over the top. Ya, is that a huge win for Nenshi and his vision? Sure is. But it's a win for the flames too. Guess they'll just need to wait for this mayor to be outgoing, lol.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by New Era

One last thing to consider here, and it is a scary thought, does Murray Edwards have a little more insight on the direction of the Calgary economy? Maybe he knows the days of oil are coming to a close and is not willing to roll the dice on the Calgary economy diversifying in any substantial way so it could support a team any longer?

Sounds like yet another great reason to not pour taxpayer dollars into a facility which basically just lets a hockey team squeeze more profit out of the city.

[Tinordi]

Remember the salad days of King proudly proclaiming that the Flames process would be nothing like Edmonton? That the Flames would check all the boxes and everything would be approved basically before it was even announced?

Remember how we all lapped that up?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by New Era

The usual bunch of rubbish.

Actually what it really comes down to is that there's not a single convincing economic argument to make for public contributions to a private, for profit business that will ultimately hurt he average fan the most in the form of being priced out. The Flames put out arguably the worst presentation for an arena proposal North American sports has seen. They expected us to be grateful to them taking our money and charging us more. They were bigly wrong.

But I just can't get over what a whiner you've been about this subject. Now all of a sudden one the biggest liberals on this board is begging for corporate welfare because...sports? Here's a true fact: The Flames aren't your friend. They don't care about you. If you as a fan are the biggest die hard ever, but rate as a $2 profit fan, and some random who thinks #13 is still Cammalleri, but rates as a $20 profit fan....they want you gone ASAP. You mean nothing to them. They laugh at your fandom, because they know they can walk all over you and you'll come back for more. So sad, I do pity you even though I don't like pitying people.