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Old 07-18-2017, 01:25 PM   #61
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Defensive play is grossly undervalued on this board.
I think it's grossly overvalued when looking at how much money and term some people think Backlund is worth. I consider strong defensive play more of a nice to have than a necessity for a first line center who's main priority is to score goals. I consider it more a required skill of 2nd or 3rd line centers. I'm not a homer in that if I was to choose between the two players I would probably take Barkov but I would have to consider Monahan as being the player you can rely on for 80 games and has maybe a better scoring touch. If Barkov continues to miss double digit games after another season or two then I may go with Monahan simply because you are going to get more games out of him.
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Old 07-18-2017, 01:26 PM   #62
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It's really hard to compare players like Barkov and Gaudreau as their skill sets are so different, but I'd wager than most GM's if given a choice would chose Barkov over Gaudreau if given the choice.

The value of a big defensively responsible centre who can score is just too great in todays NHL.
As I said, I wasn't comparing them with position in mind. That said, if I am starting a team, JG has serious consideration as my first line winger (but Benn wins). Barkov ain't my first line centre. Or second. Or third. That's mostly an issue of centre depth versus wing depth in the NHL I guess.
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Old 07-18-2017, 01:37 PM   #63
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I think it's grossly overvalued when looking at how much money and term some people think Backlund is worth. I consider strong defensive play more of a nice to have than a necessity for a first line center who's main priority is to score goals. I consider it more a required skill of 2nd or 3rd line centers. I'm not a homer in that if I was to choose between the two players I would probably take Barkov but I would have to consider Monahan as being the player you can rely on for 80 games and has maybe a better scoring touch. If Barkov continues to miss double digit games after another season or two then I may go with Monahan simply because you are going to get more games out of him.
Ok then...

Barkov: 73 goals in 252 games= 0.29 Goals/game

Monahan: 107 goals in 319 games= 0.34 Goals/game

That seems pretty comparable to me. I've already given the edge in goal scoring to Monahan in this thread, but everything else is edge Barkov, and in some cases it's a pretty big edge. Are you telling me you would take the guy who can score 0.05 goals/game more but is a lesser player in almost every other respect of the game just because you like goals more than defense? It doesn't make much sense to me, and it feels like an argument constructed to support the hometown boy more than really being objective about the comparison.
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Old 07-18-2017, 01:39 PM   #64
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If I'm putting together an all-star team Johnny and Gio get more consideration from me than Barkov. That may be because there are more great centres, I guess.
And if you are the Vegas team starting from scratch, whom do you take?
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Old 07-18-2017, 01:50 PM   #65
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Man after looking back at that 2013 draft, I'm just thankful that we drafted Monahan over Nurse and that the Oilers drafted Nurse over Ristolainen!
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Old 07-18-2017, 01:56 PM   #66
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Just as a fun clip to reinforce the narrative that Barkov doesn't always get the results he deserves based on his play, here's a clip of an incredible move that he makes only to have Carey Price show why he's easily the best goalie in the game.

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Old 07-18-2017, 02:00 PM   #67
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Just as a fun clip to reinforce the narrative that Barkov doesn't always get the results he deserves based on his play, here's a clip of an incredible move that he makes only to have Carey Price show why he's easily the best goalie in the game.

I think you would have a full highlight reel off footage if you compiled all of Johnny's misses after making incredible moves and I'd assume it'd be the same for most offensive dynamo's (like Tavares, Malkin, Kane, McDavid etc) they're so good because they generate grade A chances at ease
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Old 07-18-2017, 02:02 PM   #68
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I think you would have a full highlight reel off footage if you compiled all of Johnny's misses after making incredible moves and I'd assume it'd be the same for most offensive dynamo's (like Tavares, Malkin, Kane, McDavid etc) they're so good because they generate grade A chances at ease
I completely agree. I just wanted an excuse to show that clip. Two players at the height of their games. Doesn't get any better than that.
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Old 07-18-2017, 02:02 PM   #69
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Ok then...

Barkov: 73 goals in 252 games= 0.29 Goals/game

Monahan: 107 goals in 319 games= 0.34 Goals/game

That seems pretty comparable to me. I've already given the edge in goal scoring to Monahan in this thread, but everything else is edge Barkov, and in some cases it's a pretty big edge. Are you telling me you would take the guy who can score 0.05 goals/game more but is a lesser player in almost every other respect of the game just because you like goals more than defense? It doesn't make much sense to me, and it feels like an argument constructed to support the hometown boy more than really being objective about the comparison.

I think I take the guy who has played almost 70 more games in the same time period.
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Old 07-18-2017, 02:03 PM   #70
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Here's my take on this debate, that seems to endlessly come up on this board. Part of it is that they were both drafted in the same year, so comparisons will always come up right away based on draft class.

I'm going to start by saying IN MY OPINION,
Spoiler!


I just want to preface this post by saying I almost always enjoy your posts and typically agree with your perspectives.

However, I would find your opinion here more compelling if you had a greater degree of balanced discussion - it just seems biased to meticulously pull out the assets/abilities of Barkov, while dismissing Monahan as a goal scorer and nothing more. If you wanted to have more of a balanced discussion, you could also post clips of Monahan's good positional play, winning face-offs, his shoot-out moves, etc.

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Yes, yes he would be. There's nobody on the Flames who can do as many things as Barkov. The closest would be Giordano.
I would submit that being a multi-tool doesn't make a player the best on the ice. Taking over a game and willing it to victory could be an attribute of such a player. While it is hard to answer the question of whether he would be the best player on the ice, since it is hypothetical, it is rare in the NHL to have one player always/almost always be the best player on the ice that they skate on. Even Crosby isn't always. When you get a player that "takes over" a game it usually doesn't matter how well his teammates are playing, nor the opposing team's play, they become the best player and stand out in a good way every time they are on the ice. I'm thinking along the lines of Karlsson, Price, Crosby... Iginla in his heyday.

Bringing this back on topic, it's hard to say that Barkov would be the best player on the ice, when he is ranked in the second tier of the THN article. If you use their methodology from the article to account for the many statistical categories involved in two-way play, then there is a whole tier of players that could be the best player on the ice, even on a Barkov team.
To "gut-check" this... I could easily see Subban, Crosby, McDavid, Karlsson, Giordano, Holtby, etc. taking over a game to the extent that it didn't much matter how well Barkov played, or how the other teammates are playing. For these listed players it is somewhat easy to think of examples of when it has happened before.

The next question is how consistently they drive the play of the game to such an extent when they are on the ice, because a player could take over sporadically or do it consistently. One could make an argument, based on the past year, that Hamilton, Giordano, and even Backlund would be the best players on the ice, or that it is at least inconclusive, in comparison to Barkov.

So my point is, no matter how much we watch each game of hockey, and despite our attempts at being objective, everyone still has a bias. Statistical analysis attempts to remove this, but it is also imperfect still.

On a side note, and I realize this is conjecture, but I think some positions have a greater capacity to take over a game than others, but these positions also come with a higher degree of exposure. (Maybe the heirarchy is goalies, defencemen, centres, then wingers?) When Price is playing other-worldly, it doesn't much matter how well the defensemen are or are not playing, nor the centres or wingers, because Price is controlling the game. It's almost a neutralizing effect. Likewise, when Karlsson is on-point both defensively and offensively, the effects of the forwards are lessened (on both teams). Or when Crosby is backchecking but also creating chance after chance, his effect on the game is greater than the snipe-show that Ovechkin attempts to perform, since he's being stick lifted every second chance.

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Old 07-18-2017, 02:11 PM   #71
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[/SPOILER]

I just want to preface this post by saying I almost always enjoy your posts and typically agree with your perspectives.

However, I would find your opinion here more compelling if you had a greater degree of balanced discussion - it just seems biased to meticulously pull out the assets/abilities of Barkov, while dismissing Monahan as a goal scorer and nothing more. If you wanted to have more of a balanced discussion, you could also post clips of Monahan's good positional play, winning face-offs, his shoot-out moves, etc.
I didn't feel the need to go through it all because most Flames fans are aware of Monahan's game, but few have seen Barkov more than a handful of times. I felt it warranted a more detailed description of the player he is. All anyone has to do around here to see a highlight package of Monahan is look at one of AC's videos.

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I would submit that being a multi-tool doesn't make a player the best on the ice. Taking over a game and willing it to victory could be an attribute of such a player. While it is hard to answer the question of whether he would be the best player on the ice, since it is hypothetical, it is rare in the NHL to have one player always/almost always be the best player on the ice that they skate on. Even Crosby isn't always. When you get a player that "takes over" a game it usually doesn't matter how well his teammates are playing, or the opposing team, they become the best player and stand out in a good way every time they are on the ice. I'm thinking along the lines of Karlsson, Price, Crosby... Iginla in his heyday.
I feel like that clip of the comeback against the Rangers illustrates that pretty well, no?

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Bringing this back on topic, it's hard to say that Barkov would be the best player on the ice, when he is ranked in the second tier of the THN article. If you use their methodology from the article to account for the many statistical categories involved in two-way play, then there is a whole tier of players that could be the best player on the ice, even on a Barkov team.
To "gut-check" this... I could easily see Subban, Crosby, McDavid, Karlsson, Giordano, Holtby, etc. taking over a game to the extent that it didn't much matter how well Barkov played, or how the other teammates are playing. For these listed players it is somewhat easy to think of examples of when it has happened before.
Maybe, but Monahan isn't even ranked and the comparison was between the two players.

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The next question is how consistently they drive the play of the game to such an extent when they are on the ice, because a player could take over sporadically or do it consistently. One could make an argument, based on the past year, that Hamilton, Giordano, and even Backlund would be the best players on the ice, or that it is at least inconclusive, in comparison to Barkov.

So my point is, no matter how much we watch each game of hockey, and despite our attempts at being objective, everyone still has a bias. Statistical analysis attempts to remove this, but it is also imperfect still.

On a side note, and I realize this is conjecture, but I think some positions have a greater capacity to take over a game than others, but these positions also come with a higher degree of exposure. (Maybe the heirarchy is goalies, defencemen, centres, then wingers?) When Price is playing other-worldly, it doesn't much matter how well the defensemen are or are not playing, nor the centres or wingers, because Price is controlling the game. It's almost a neutralizing effect. Likewise, when Karlsson is on-point both defensively and offensively, the effects of the forwards are lessened (on both teams). Or when Crosby is backchecking but also creating chance after chance, his effect on the game is greater than the snipe-show that Ovechkin attempts to perform, since he's being stick lifted every second chance.
I agree with all this.
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Old 07-18-2017, 02:33 PM   #72
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I didn't feel the need to go through it all because most Flames fans are aware of Monahan's game, but few have seen Barkov more than a handful of times. I felt it warranted a more detailed description of the player he is. All anyone has to do around here to see a highlight package of Monahan is look at one of AC's videos.



I feel like that clip of the comeback against the Rangers illustrates that pretty well, no?



Maybe, but Monahan isn't even ranked and the comparison was between the two players.



I agree with all this.
That makes sense why you didn't analyse Monahan's play in such a detailed way, but this may be partly why people are frequently jumping on the homeristic-defensive.

I agree that the clip of the Rangers is an example of Barkov taking over. Would you say that he has done it more times/more consistently/to the same or greater extent than Giordano has? I was responding to the question of whether Barkov would be the best player on the ice, not strictly compared to Monahan.

As for my stance, like some others, I would give the slight edge to Barkov over Monahan at this point, with Barkov's longevity/"grit", and Monahan's developing defensive play to be determined. Were Barkov's injuries just outliers and not indicative of his future health in seasons to come? Is Monahan's defensive play still developing and going to improve incrementally more than Barkov's will? Is the disparity in their defensive play attributable to Barkov having a greater focus on defensive play during his developmental years playing in Finland and with men, while Monahan was in the OHL, and thus might still learn that area of the game to the same extent as Barkov?
Will either of them learn to play as a physical force and use their size like they have the tools to? Just some of the questions that might affect who I would take in the future.
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Old 07-18-2017, 02:59 PM   #73
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That makes sense why you didn't analyse Monahan's play in such a detailed way, but this may be partly why people are frequently jumping on the homeristic-defensive.

I agree that the clip of the Rangers is an example of Barkov taking over. Would you say that he has done it more times/more consistently/to the same or greater extent than Giordano has? I was responding to the question of whether Barkov would be the best player on the ice, not strictly compared to Monahan.

As for my stance, like some others, I would give the slight edge to Barkov over Monahan at this point, with Barkov's longevity/"grit", and Monahan's developing defensive play to be determined. Were Barkov's injuries just outliers and not indicative of his future health in seasons to come? Is Monahan's defensive play still developing and going to improve incrementally more than Barkov's will? Is the disparity in their defensive play attributable to Barkov having a greater focus on defensive play during his developmental years playing in Finland and with men, while Monahan was in the OHL, and thus might still learn that area of the game to the same extent as Barkov?
Will either of them learn to play as a physical force and use their size like they have the tools to? Just some of the questions that might affect who I would take in the future.
That's a lot of questions to answer, but I will do my best.

If we're talking about the frequency of taking over a game like Giordano has, then yes, Barkov has done it as frequently if not more frequently. He's not on the level of Crosby or others just yet, but he exerts his will more often than not. Like any player, there are nights where he's simply good and not exceptional. Considering he's still only 21 years old (Sep. birthday), I am projecting him to be one of the absolute elite players in the game in a couple of years and so it is my opinion that he will eventually be in that top tier of players. I would already be comfortable comparing him to Kopitar in terms of style of play and effectiveness.


I have no idea whether Barkov will continue to deal with injuries, but lets' not forget that Backlund struggled to stay healthy for many years before he finally found his groove. Much of that had to do with getting physically stronger for Backlund. Barkov is still filling out his large frame, so he's a bit more fragile at this age than he will be once he reaches his final weight. I will say that injuries have affected his play upon return at times, at least enough to make his numbers look worse than they could be if he stayed healthy for the full year.

You could make the argument that playing in a men's league pushed Barkov's on-ice awareness ahead of Monahan's development, but he's still improved defensively every single year in the NHL too. Not that Monahan hasn't improved from his start (he clearly has and I'm confident he still has room to grow in this regard) but Barkov has improved more rapidly and seems to be a sponge in this regard. That's why I think his upside defensively is among the best, possibly at a Bergeron level once he's done developing.

I think both players are going to be comparable with regards to their physical play. Monahan has learned how to stake his claim in front of the net and battle for pucks there. Barkov has focused on the board battles and working off the cycle. Neither player will hit guys hard, but I believe both will become more effective over time by using their body to protect the puck (Jagr has helped Barkov a LOT in this regard) and winning puck battles in scrums.

Like I said, they are comparable players in many many ways, but the possibility of Barkov reaching Bergeron levels of defensive play along with high end offensive abilities gives the edge to him in my mind. Sure, injuries have been a problem so far, but Monahan has battled through some injuries as well. He just didn't miss as much time, but a bad back really affected Monahan's play to start last season.

I will say that Monahan's performance in last year's playoffs make me think he's primed to become one of those players who really brings it come playoff time. If that happens, well then forget everything I've said in this thread, because high end playoff performers will trump great regular season performers every time.
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Old 07-18-2017, 03:00 PM   #74
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Because Gaudreau's offence makes up for his lack of D so much so that he is better. Would you say Backlund is better than Gaudreau?

Because Giordano is, IMO one of the top all around defencemen in the league. And only a couple years removed from serious Norris discussions. IMO his play in the second half was as good as ever.

Maybe I'm underselling Barkov, but I don't think he's as good as those two guys.

eta: this isn't a Monahan v. Barkov comparison as your post suggests.
I trade Gio or Gaudreau for Barkov in an instant. Zero hesitation

I take that back, some hesitation on dealing our captain for sure. But from an asset value standpoint you do that trade any day. Outside of McDavid, Matthews I feel that Barkov is amongst the best of the rest young centres in the game. I put him right there with Eichel

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Old 07-18-2017, 04:13 PM   #75
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And if you are the Vegas team starting from scratch, whom do you take?
Engelland of course.

Seriously, though, I'm taking a C or D, but not because they are a better player. If they are at all close, I fill the middle and back end. I've already conceded that a W is not as valuable as a C.

I guess I'm distinguishing between "best player on the team/ice" versus "best player to build a team around".
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Old 07-18-2017, 05:04 PM   #76
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Seriously, though, I'm taking a C or D, but not because they are a better player. If they are at all close, I fill the middle and back end. I've already conceded that a W is not as valuable as a C.

I guess I'm distinguishing between "best player on the team/ice" versus "best player to build a team around".
Barkov still wins there. He's the best franchise player of anybody on the Flames and Panthers at the moment.
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Old 07-18-2017, 05:10 PM   #77
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Barkov still wins there. He's the best franchise player of anybody on the Flames and Panthers at the moment.
I will defer to the people who've seen him more, but in what I've watched, I don't think so. Mind you, if I was starting from scratch, I might pick Ekblad anyway.
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Old 07-18-2017, 05:18 PM   #78
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I'm not really sure what the base of the argument is. We don't need Monahan to be better than Barkov to be the 1st line centre on a championship team.

They are comparable player with similar skill sets. One is better than the other, one has a better supporting cast. Maybe Monahan doesn't need to focus on his defensive game as much with the emergence of Backlund. He doesn't see the same types of match ups that Barkov does. The difference is marginal enough that IMO, it wouldn't be worth giving up growing chemistry among a young group of players to trade them 1 for 1, even if Barkov is better.

I think for this generation of players under 25, it will be a similar situation to now. Where you have Crosby, someone who is obviously the most talented player, and then a whole host of elite players (Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar, Kane, Doughty, etc...) that maybe don't get the reverence of the golden child, but are more than capable of leading their teams to championships.

So now you'll have McDavid and then a whole bunch of Monahan, Barkov, Gaudreau, Eichel, Forsberg, etc...
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Old 07-18-2017, 05:24 PM   #79
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I will defer to the people who've seen him more, but in what I've watched, I don't think so. Mind you, if I was starting from scratch, I might pick Ekblad anyway.
Ekblad has been regressing from his rookie season where he was helped greatly by Brian Campbell, not to mention he's on the path to having scrambled eggs for brains with all of these concussions.
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Old 07-18-2017, 08:46 PM   #80
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I will defer to the people who've seen him more, but in what I've watched, I don't think so. Mind you, if I was starting from scratch, I might pick Ekblad anyway.
Derp, forgot all about Ekblad! Yeah he'd be in consideration too and might be the easy pick if it weren't for all his concussion worries.
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