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Old 07-16-2017, 09:53 PM   #21
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I thought the same thing, I went back a few times to make sure I didn't miss him. I tried to understand the method used, but I was lacking sleep and lost interest.
This. I have watched Mackinnon live and am a huge fan of his game, but Sean Monahan has out produced him almost every season as a pro. when does draft position stop mattering and we look at the facts? Sean is the best player from that draft.
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:10 PM   #22
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This. I have watched Mackinnon live and am a huge fan of his game, but Sean Monahan has out produced him almost every season as a pro. when does draft position stop mattering and we look at the facts? Sean is the best player from that draft.
Barkov is better.
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:36 PM   #23
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Seems like a lot of effort to come to the conclusion that good NHL teams need star players and decent supporting casts. You probably could've just asked literally anybody who knows anything about hockey.

Next week, do we come up with an advanced stat formula to determine that the teams that score a lot of goals win a lot of games?
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:36 PM   #24
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Anyway, I love when someone does a meticulous analysis that encompasses like, the entire league, and random internet posters look through it to find an outlier and then whine, "but but... this doesn't accord with my preconceived notions about which players are good! The whole endeavour must be a sham!" Not like everything about it has to be 100% correct, but at least it's well thought out and based on some actual data. When you do that, you're going to get some results you might not have expected.
And people have the audacity to call you arrogant.
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:36 AM   #25
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Seems like a lot of effort to come to the conclusion that good NHL teams need star players and decent supporting casts. You probably could've just asked literally anybody who knows anything about hockey.

Next week, do we come up with an advanced stat formula to determine that the teams that score a lot of goals win a lot of games?
There's a huge difference between saying something (and perhaps even knowing something), and being able to prove it.
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Old 07-17-2017, 05:21 AM   #26
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Barkov is better.
Raw talent doesn't excuse him from being a hypochondriac, the guy would miss 5 games because of a hangnail.

Monahan and it isn't even close!
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:27 AM   #27
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Seems like a lot of effort to come to the conclusion that good NHL teams need star players and decent supporting casts. You probably could've just asked literally anybody who knows anything about hockey.

Next week, do we come up with an advanced stat formula to determine that the teams that score a lot of goals win a lot of games?
I thought it helps validate the idea that you need other players, or quality support to achieve.
We've seen so much talk about McDavids contract and how it impacts the build of the rest of that team. One wrong contract or an injury to a key player and your season can suffer.
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:52 AM   #28
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Honestly, not that their defense is good, but it's mostly just the goaltending. Looking at the past three seasons, they get about 50% of shots taken, they're about average in possession, they're below average but not basement-dwelling in shots against per 60, but they're right around the bottom five in save percentage at even strength and on the PK. With just average goaltending, that's a solid playoff team. With good goaltending? Could be a cup contender.

I think Mason can be at least average for them, so that bodes well.
They are terribly undisciplined and poorly coached. Mason will help but that team has deeper issues than just goaltending.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:42 AM   #29
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Anyone can make a list of some sort and it's completely subjective.

This is a set of parameters established by an author and applied to every player in the NHL. He's not picking favourites or trying to anger a fan base (though Oiler fans lost it on the weekend specifically).

To me there's a huge difference between a guy just ranking players and coming up with a formula.

The key then is do you like the results? And that takes some objectivity ... do you hate the list because Monahan didn't make it? Or do you like the list because the 3M line made it?

Comes down to Corsi events in this case, and therein lies the argument.

Having watched Backund emerge for years I do think players that do the play driving elements at elite levels are massively important. But that is the argument.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:54 AM   #30
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Raw talent doesn't excuse him from being a hypochondriac, the guy would miss 5 games because of a hangnail.

Monahan and it isn't even close!
Barkov is considered the far superior defensive player.

They score about the same, although the missed games is, as you mention, a concern.

Barkov is a better player, but his ability to stay on the ice makes it a very close call.
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Old 07-17-2017, 03:08 PM   #31
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Raw talent doesn't excuse him from being a hypochondriac, the guy would miss 5 games because of a hangnail.

Monahan and it isn't even close!
You're wrong.
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:46 PM   #32
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I think Barkov and Monahan are a wash. I think Barkov is probably a bit better in his own end and Monahan is a bit better offensively. It just comes down to preference. I prefer Monahan to Barkov myself but I understand the other argument and accept that it is quite valid.

Wouldn't trade either of them for MacKinnon.
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Old 07-17-2017, 05:53 PM   #33
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I think Barkov and Monahan are a wash. I think Barkov is probably a bit better in his own end and Monahan is a bit better offensively. It just comes down to preference. I prefer Monahan to Barkov myself but I understand the other argument and accept that it is quite valid.

Wouldn't trade either of them for MacKinnon.
Look at the stats again. Barkov's points per game is higher than Monahan's and he's quite a bit better defensively.

Only thing Monahan is better at is scoring goals. And staying healthy for a full season.
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:00 PM   #34
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Look at the stats again. Barkov's points per game is higher than Monahan's and he's quite a bit better defensively.

Only thing Monahan is better at is scoring goals. And staying healthy for a full season.
PPG don't matter as much as actual real life points. If he can't stay healthy the points per game don't matter, and Monahan closed the gap defensively quite a bit last season, he was excellent. GG had him playing back in front of his own net, under Hartley his defensive responsibilities were lessened. Monahan stepped up to that challenge big time.
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:13 PM   #35
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PPG don't matter as much as actual real life points. If he can't stay healthy the points per game don't matter, and Monahan closed the gap defensively quite a bit last season, he was excellent. GG had him playing back in front of his own net, under Hartley his defensive responsibilities were lessened. Monahan stepped up to that challenge big time.
As one of the few people who watched both regularly, Barkov is an elite defensive player. Monahan is decent, but nowhere near Barkov's ability to control the defensive zone. Even if Monahan closed the gap, he's still got a ways to go to be comparable.
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:50 PM   #36
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Look at the stats again. Barkov's points per game is higher than Monahan's and he's quite a bit better defensively.

Only thing Monahan is better at is scoring goals. And staying healthy for a full season.
Hm, never thought of PPG when I made that post.

I will admit that I'm likely biased as I watch Monahan 82 times a year and Barkov maybe 5 or 6. Might have to start watching that kid more.
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Old 07-17-2017, 09:05 PM   #37
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Barkov is much better than Monahan, sadly for Panther fans, he's made of glass
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Old 07-18-2017, 01:30 AM   #38
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I won't pick who is better between Monahan and Barkov. Both sides have good arguments.

What I do think is that injury time simply shouldn't be shrugged-off as nothing. That is time away from the team that would otherwise go in helping the team win a game. Who knows? Maybe Monahan is really good at playing through injuries (he was while playing in these last playoffs, and he did well).

My thoughts are that they are both really good players. Monahan is so underrated because "Gaudreau makes Monahan great". I would love to split Gaudreau and Monahan up as I really think Monahan can thrive away from Gaudreau and do more to drive possession himself. I think he is so underrated and under-appreciated.

As for the methodology - I don't have a problem with it. The one thing about advanced stats that I love is how it SHOULD remove bias. Too many twerps end up using it to prove their existing bias with the data, rather than include more data. At least this author kept it consistent throughout the league.
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Old 07-18-2017, 03:59 AM   #39
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Funny. Flames score really high, but Monahan and Bennett and Brodie don't rank.

Let's just win a cup and screw them all.
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Old 07-18-2017, 05:14 AM   #40
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I won't pick who is better between Monahan and Barkov. Both sides have good arguments.

What I do think is that injury time simply shouldn't be shrugged-off as nothing. That is time away from the team that would otherwise go in helping the team win a game. Who knows? Maybe Monahan is really good at playing through injuries (he was while playing in these last playoffs, and he did well).

My thoughts are that they are both really good players. Monahan is so underrated because "Gaudreau makes Monahan great". I would love to split Gaudreau and Monahan up as I really think Monahan can thrive away from Gaudreau and do more to drive possession himself. I think he is so underrated and under-appreciated.

As for the methodology - I don't have a problem with it. The one thing about advanced stats that I love is how it SHOULD remove bias. Too many twerps end up using it to prove their existing bias with the data, rather than include more data. At least this author kept it consistent throughout the league.
I hear what you're saying, but they're in different tiers for sure. Monahan is a solid young player who can be a foundational piece on a team with cup aspirations, while Barkov is the type of player that could be the guy (ala: Kopitar). You can tell immediately just watching him how skilled he is. He controls the pace of the game like an elite #1C while also having a tremendous 2-way game. He is also a possession monster, who carried an aged Jagr to respectable numbers. Barkov is almost like a Backlund x Gaudreau hybrid, he's blown me away the times I've had the chance to watch him play. But I definitely do agree with your other point though, that's all for nothing if the player can't stay healthy, and to be honest I think we've gotten pretty lucky with our young core and their health *knocks on wood*
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