[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by Eubee

Because Calgary is one of the NHL's top markets I personally feel that the owners can threaten to move but ultimately will not. I agree that on the surface, why should the average tax payer pay for a building they may never enter because of the cost? That being said, although I can enter a library downtown, I may never do so. And I help pay for it. The difference is that I can, if I want to, and get benefit from it at no cost. That is a big difference.

It's perhaps worth noting that some of Winnipeg's most prosperous years were the decade and a half between the original and the new Jets being in town.

[yourbestfriend]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Unfortunately the outsiders looking in (like Bettman and other owners) are probably thinking the sister Alberta team can make a deal with the City for local funding a la what the Oilers did. Just give it time and patience. And I have a feeling the Flames owners are looking for that same thing, and are expecting a Hail Mary to come through.

As much as I love the Flames, this is not something we should ever - EVER - be funding with taxpayer money, unless the public derives significant benefit from it directly.
If anything I'm hoping the provincial and federal governments jump in, see a new arena as part of a serious Olympic bid, and the Flames as part of the Stampede and in association with Tourism Alberta are the long-term strategy to sustain a new building. But without the fieldhouses and associated community benefit, I just can't see this coming to light.

I think that has a large part to do with the whole situation. From the league and owner point of view, if Edmonton can do it, why can't Calgary? Most of the important economic, political and social externalities are very similar for both cities. They set a pretty strong precedent for a municipally funded arena.

Also as an FYI, the provincial government already committed funding to Rogers Arena. So technically, some of our tax dollars helped build that arena. I think it’s only fair we make them do the same for us when the time comes lol

[nik-]

Originally Posted by yourbestfriend

I think that has a large part to do with the whole situation. From the league and owner point of view, if Edmonton can do it, why can't Calgary? Most of the important economic, political and social externalities are very similar for both cities. They set a pretty strong precedent for a municipally funded arena.

Also as an FYI, the provincial government already committed funding to Rogers Arena. So technically, some of our tax dollars helped build that arena. I think it’s only fair we make them do the same for us when the time comes lol

I'd rather we just not repeat the same mistake.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by nik-

I'd rather we just not repeat the same mistake.

I dunno, I'm okay with Edmontonians helping pay for our arena.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by TheKurgan

That's fine, your opinion and your are entitled to it. But if we aren't willing to support pro teams, or state of the Art entertainment facilities there are other cities that do, and will. You are seeing that in more and more in Pro Sports (3 relocations ongoing in the NFL), teams are going to where the money is. If the city doesn't want to support the Flames I think they have every right to move the team to someplace that will, they are for profit as you say.

And with the Team owner living in London now because he doesn't want to pay NDP taxes I wouldn't hold my breath on his loyalty to Calgary.

Curious, of where you're going here on relocation.

Which cities are available to the Flames ownership?

* Have just one of the major four sports teams, thus monopolizing sports entertainment dollars
* Hockey crazed market;
* 1 Million plus metropolitan area
* Above average wages, for more disposable entertainment dollars
* A corporate center, that fosters sponsorship, and the purchase of club lucrative, private suites
* Ease of portability

Kansas City?
Seattle?
Portland?
Hamilton?
Toronto#2?
Quebec City?


None of those, check off all the boxes like Calgary does.

BUT, in the very unlikely event they do, the ownership from Hurricanes, Panthers, Blue Jackets, Coyotes, Islanders, will certainly salivate at the opportunity.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Curious, of where you're going here on relocation.

Which cities are available to the Flames ownership?

* Have just one of the major four sports teams, thus monopolizing sports entertainment dollars
* Hockey crazed market;
* 1 Million plus metropolitan area
* Above average wages, for more disposable entertainment dollars
* A corporate center, that fosters sponsorship, and the purchase of club lucrative, private suites
* Ease of portability

Kansas City?
Seattle?
Portland?
Hamilton?
Toronto#2?
Quebec City?


None of those, check off all the boxes like Calgary does.

BUT, in the very unlikely event they do, the ownership from Hurricanes, Panthers, Blue Jackets, Coyotes, Islanders, will certainly salivate at the opportunity.

Because moving a team out of those markets to more profitable Canadian markets has been such an easy task in the past.

Teams will not be moved from those markets to a Canadian market under any circumstance other than if the team has a receiver locking the doors to their rink like was about to happen in Atlanta when they moved to Winnipeg.

I'm not saying Calgary would ever relocate, but i'm saying this whole "If they leave, who cares, we'll just get another team shortly" sentiment is complete nonsense. If the Flames ever leave Calgary, I have a hard time believing they would ever get a team a back, and if they did, it would be a decade or two down the road.

[polak]

Or the owners see the writing on the wall that this province will be on life support in a few decades and since they already have so much of their worth tied to Alberta Oil, they don't want to invest more billions in real estate here.

I don't blame them.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by polak

Or the owners see the writing on the wall that this province will be on life support in a few decades and since they already have so much of their worth tied to Alberta Oil, they don't want to invest more billions in real estate here.

I don't blame them.

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA. You here all night?

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Because moving a team out of those markets to more profitable Canadian markets has been such an easy task in the past.

Teams will not be moved from those markets to a Canadian market under any circumstance other than if the team has a receiver locking the doors to their rink like was about to happen in Atlanta when they moved to Winnipeg.

I'm not saying Calgary would ever relocate, but i'm saying this whole "If they leave, who cares, we'll just get another team shortly" sentiment is complete nonsense. If the Flames ever leave Calgary, I have a hard time believing they would ever get a team a back, and if they did, it would be a decade or two down the road.

I have no doubt that another team would want to move here... but - and I'm just speculating here - what do you think #1 would be on the list of wants if a team did want to move here???

A NEW ARENA.

Do people really thing that there is a team that would want to move here, or equally importantly, be allowed to move here by the NHL, when the only arena choice is a 30+ year old option?

It's a bit of a cycle there...

[nik-]

Stock up on water and weapons for the inevitable wasteland.

[Par]

Originally Posted by polak

Or the owners see the writing on the wall that this province will be on life support in a few decades and since they already have so much of their worth tied to Alberta Oil, they don't want to invest more billions in real estate here.

I don't blame them.

These kinds of statements are just idiotic, prices of oil will go up(they are down because of politics, not demand and when those that are playing politics with oil suffer, the oil prices will go up).

As for "this province will be on life support in a few decades", no it won't be, in a few decades this province will diversify it's economy and won't depend on oil that much.

As for the team moving, where the #### are they going to move it? This is not happening.

The team and the city will get a new arena, the CalagryNext was just a smokescreen, the real project was this one, the Victoria Park. The Flames knew that there is no way, the city and province, would pay $1 Billion for a new hockey stadium(NFL stadiums cost that much money and the NFL is in another universe than the NHL.)

The Calgary Flames will get a good deal out of this and the city will promise to develop the area around the new stadium.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Because moving a team out of those markets to more profitable Canadian markets has been such an easy task in the past.

Teams will not be moved from those markets to a Canadian market under any circumstance other than if the team has a receiver locking the doors to their rink like was about to happen in Atlanta when they moved to Winnipeg.

I'm not saying Calgary would ever relocate, but i'm saying this whole "If they leave, who cares, we'll just get another team shortly" sentiment is complete nonsense. If the Flames ever leave Calgary, I have a hard time believing they would ever get a team a back, and if they did, it would be a decade or two down the road.

Has a more lucrative location come up for availability before? Exactly. There isn't precedence to speak of. Yet, a less viable comparable just happened a few short years ago.

Just like it was mentioned previous, the Oilers comparable -- Katz had no desire to move, and was simply disrupting the market conversation, with his communication strategy.

Winnipeg, & Quebec City are not Calgary in terms of profitability. Less seats, with considerably less corporate support.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by polak

Or the owners see the writing on the wall that this province will be on life support in a few decades and since they already have so much of their worth tied to Alberta Oil, they don't want to invest more billions in real estate here.

I don't blame them.

Lol get a clue. They don't need to invest billions in real estate. Nothing is stopping them from selling their ownership in oil or the Flames.

It isn't a one way street, Alberta gave them the opportunity not the other way around.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by polak

Or the owners see the writing on the wall that this province will be on life support in a few decades and since they already have so much of their worth tied to Alberta Oil, they don't want to invest more billions in real estate here.

I don't blame them.

If Buffalo still has the economic clout to maintain TWO major league franchises Calgary would have to reach Mad Max levels of economic deterioration to make it permanently untenable.

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

I have no doubt that another team would want to move here... but - and I'm just speculating here - what do you think #1 would be on the list of wants if a team did want to move here???

A NEW ARENA.

Do people really thing that there is a team that would want to move here, or equally importantly, be allowed to move here, when the only arena choice is a 30+ year old option?

It's a bit of a cycle there...

So an owner will understand that the hypothetically-now-untapped market is worth the investment of putting up the bulk of the cash needed for said new arena/affiliated entertainment facilities. Exactly like in Winnipeg.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Maybe it's that I haven't slept in 4 days, but I'm failing to see why the city can't contribute a percentage of the building cost and then recoup that as as percentage of revenues from the building until the original payment is repaid.

IE: Arena costs $800million, city pays $200million. That's 25%.

Have an independent auditor check the books and assess fair market value for rent to the Flames, Hitmen, Roughnecks combined with any private rentals (concerts, conventions, etc) then take either 25% of profits of the year or something like 10% of revenues and repay the city until the $200million is repaid. Economic spinoff would equate payment of interest not payment of interest and principle.

Billionaires get their new arena, city gets repaid, economy gets a boost, everyone wins.

[Par]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Has a more lucrative location come up for availability before? Exactly. There isn't precedence to speak of. Yet, a less viable comparable just happened a few short years ago.

Just like it was mentioned previous, the Oilers comparable -- Katz had no desire to move, and was simply disrupting the market conversation, with his communication strategy.

Winnipeg, & Quebec City are not Calgary in terms of profitability. Less seats, with considerably less corporate support.

The Calgary Flames and Bettman are doing the same thing that Kats and Bettman did in Edmonton, trying to get a better deal(like you are saying.)

The NHL likes to save a market if needed in case of a hard landing, they like soft landing spots. Just like Winnipeg was saved as one and they needed Winnipeg on a moments notice and Winnipeg was ready.

The same thing is true about Quebec City, it is being saved as a soft lading for a US team(most likely the Hurricanes).

[Par]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

Maybe it's that I haven't slept in 4 days, but I'm failing to see why the city can't contribute a percentage of the building cost and then recoup that as as percentage of revenues from the building until the original payment is repaid.

IE: Arena costs $800million, city pays $200million. That's 25%.

Have an independent auditor check the books and assess fair market value for rent to the Flames, Hitmen, Roughnecks combined with any private rentals (concerts, conventions, etc) then take either 25% of profits of the year or something like 10% of revenues and repay the city until the $200million is repaid. Economic spinoff would equate payment of interest not payment of interest and principle.

Billionaires get their new arena, city gets repaid, economy gets a boost, everyone wins.

Because they are idiots.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by polak

Or the owners see the writing on the wall that this province will be on life support in a few decades and since they already have so much of their worth tied to Alberta Oil, they don't want to invest more billions in real estate here.

I don't blame them.

What a mess. You've become a caricature of yourself.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Winnipeg, & Quebec City are not Calgary in terms of profitability. Less seats, with considerably less corporate support.

Devil's advocate but IIRC QC's arena has a higher seating capacity than the Saddledome. Also the trend has lately been to intentionally undersize arenas to help inflate demand for seats. The era of 22k-seat arenas is over.

If Calgary does build a new arena I'd expect capacity to largely remain the same as it is with the Saddledome. What'll be different is more corporate boxes and a larger proportion of seats in the lower bowl relative to the upper bowl/nosebleeds.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Has a more lucrative location come up for availability before? Exactly. There isn't precedence to speak of. Yet, a less viable comparable just happened a few short years ago.

Just like it was mentioned previous, the Oilers comparable -- Katz had no desire to move, and was simply disrupting the market conversation, with his communication strategy.

Winnipeg, & Quebec City are not Calgary in terms of profitability. Less seats, with considerably less corporate support.

Second team in Toronto, Hamilton, Other golden horse shoe locations. These never get off the ground.

What are you talking about in Quebec City? They have a brand new 18,500 seat stadium that has been waiting for a tenant since they put the shovels in the ground. They would easily have corporate support, and on top of that, the Quebec City franchise would get a level of Provincial Government support that doesn't exist in Alberta and most teams would be envious of.

The NHL thinks so little of more NHL teams in Canada that they didn't even consider Quebec City for expansion when Quebec would have handed them a blank cheque. Not sure how people here think that they'd be willing to move a franchise to Calgary when they don't have a rink, the dollar hovering around 70 cents with no signs of receovery, and the local economy is the toilet and is based even in good times on a form of energy that world is trying to shift away from.

This team isn't going to relocate, but we'd be screwed if they ever did.