Sam Bennett contract negotiations.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Is Bennett our 5th or 6th best winger?

Right now in my opinion only Gaudreau, Tkachuk, and Lindholm (who is rumored to be moving to center) are clearly better.

Depends what you mean by better.

Offensively i see as many as 6 guys who are better. Neal and Mangiapane remains to be seen if they rebound for one and keep progressing for the other.

Defensively there are 3 better without question. One more maybe there as well.

He is the best at playing with some jam and sticking up for team mates. But even then he disappears for long stretches in that capacity as well.

So yeah overall 5th/6th best winger is pretty accurate.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Is Bennett our 5th or 6th best winger?

Right now in my opinion only Gaudreau, Tkachuk, and Lindholm (who is rumored to be moving to center) are clearly better.

Do you think Bennett is a top 2 line winger on a championship team?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Do you think Bennett is a top 2 line winger on a championship team?

It is funny the Flames were 2nd overall in the NHL last season and did it with Frolik/Bennett as the 2nd line winger. Typically the 2nd overall team would have a good shot at the cup. Clearly the Flames were not the same team in the playoffs but Bennett was one of a small handful that elevated their game.

I am not advocating 4M per season I just don’t think he is the 5th or 6th best winger on the team.

[Ped]

If he isn't your 5th or 6th best winger, that's one of the reasons Calgary is not playing anymore.


On Carolina, 5 wingers outscored him.


On San Jose, 6 wingers outscored him.


On St Louis, 5 wingers outscored him



Boston is the outlier, as they brought in Coyle and Johansson who didn't light up the regular season but have been good in the playoffs.


Now I realize the issue with Bennett is what he brings besides points, but if you're top 6 guy is producing that little, that's a serious depth issue.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Ped

If he isn't your 5th or 6th best winger, that's one of the reasons Calgary is not playing anymore.


On Carolina, 5 wingers outscored him.


On San Jose, 6 wingers outscored him.


On St Louis, 5 wingers outscored him



Boston is the outlier, as they brought in Coyle and Johansson who didn't light up the regular season but have been good in the playoffs.


Now I realize the issue with Bennett is what he brings besides points, but if you're top 6 guy is producing that little, that's a serious depth issue.

But he really hasn’t been given the ice time and PP time of a top 6 winger.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

But he really hasn’t been given the ice time and PP time of a top 6 winger.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

4th most total ice among wingers on the team...just ahead of Neal who would have had more if he wasn't injured.

5th most PP time among W's.

5th in offensive production among W's.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by transplant99

4
5th most PP time among W's.

Considering 4 wingers get PP time by definition, 5th is not that great.

[MikePatton]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Considering 4 wingers get PP time by definition, 5th is not that great.

But weren't there 3 wingers on PP unit #1?

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Depends what you mean by better.

Offensively i see as many as 6 guys who are better. Neal and Mangiapane remains to be seen if they rebound for one and keep progressing for the other.

Defensively there are 3 better without question. One more maybe there as well.

He is the best at playing with some jam and sticking up for team mates. But even then he disappears for long stretches in that capacity as well.

So yeah overall 5th/6th best winger is pretty accurate.

Playing with jam does take it's toll, Ferland got concussed, injured playing a bruising style. Bennett was rocked at one point missed some games. I imagine it is not as easy as it looks, or more guys would be doing it. We need more players with jam up and down the lineup! Would this team have any jam without Bennett?

[transplant99]

W's PP TOI

Gaudreau 273:30
Lindholm 259:07
Tkachuk 255:29
Neal 138:03
Bennett 108:33
Czarnik 69:58

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It's been pointed out by me previously and others in this thread that there is a big gap between comparing Bennett to a league average that includes the worst teams in the league and comparing him to contending teams.

It also conveniently leaves out that the context of his production benefitted from spending 30+ percent of his icetime this season with Backlund and tkachuk, who also coincidentally happened to produce less tangible offense when paired with Bennett.

Outside of those second line minutes he was producing tangible offense at a 4th line rate.

For something like the first 25 games of the season he was on an 18 point pace.

I just don't care how he compares to the oilers third line forwards.

How does he compare to the sharks, bolts, bruins, knights, Jets, caps, preds, avs, etc. third lines?

How does he compare in points per 60 against the teams that remain in the playoffs right now?

Seriously?

They're averages, nothing more nothing less. If you want to call a guy a fourth liner on a contending team than say that. You didn't. You said fourth liner.

So I gave you averages from the league and never stated otherwise.

And I don't think it's drop the mic time to suggest players that get to play with better players tend to produce more than when they don't. Similarly I doubt that's much different than most of the players that make up that third line average across the league.

Bennett on the season ...

Possession Stats
CF% - 66th for NHL forwards (first line)
Shot Split - 89th for NHL forward (first line)
Expected Goal Split - 100th (2nd line)
Scoring Chance Split - 58th (1st line)
High Danger Splits - 64th (1st line)

Rates
CF60 - 43rd (1st line)
CA60 - 138th (2nd line)
SF60 - 109th (2nd line)
SA60 - 119th (2nd line)
XGF60 - 88th (1st line)
XGA60 - 160th (2nd line)
SCF60 - 54th (1st line)
SCA60 - 137th (2nd line)
HDCF60 - 72nd (1st line)
HDCA60 - 107th (2nd line)

Individual
Goals60 - 188th (3rd line)
PrimaryA60 - 87th (1st line)
Shots60 - 163rd (2nd line)
ExpGoals60 - 62nd (1st line)
IndividualCF60 - 134th (2nd line)
IndividualSCF60 - 41st (1st line)
IndividualHDCF60 - 34th (1st line)

This isn't a fourth line player, in fact this is a guy with third line average production, but is driving much more on the ice than is going in the net. Sure the bottom line is the bottom line, and I've been consistent in saying they need to upgrade the second line ahead of him, but why this guy gets labeled a fourth liner, or a player to walk away from is silliness.

[Bingo]

Finally ...

Filtered NHL forwards down to the top ten teams (points wise, seemed the most fair way to draw a contender line).

Sam Bennetts rankings out of 135 forwards on these teams

Individual
Goals60 - 84th (3rd line)
PrimaryA60 - 39th (2nd line)
Shots60 - 63rd (3rd line)
ExpGoals60 - 28th (1st line)
IndividualCF60 - 49th (2nd line)
IndividualSCF60 - 22nd (1st line)
IndividualHDCF60 - 16th (1st line)

So yeah ... let the fourth line thing go.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Ped

If he isn't your 5th or 6th best winger, that's one of the reasons Calgary is not playing anymore.


On Carolina, 5 wingers outscored him.


On San Jose, 6 wingers outscored him.


On St Louis, 5 wingers outscored him



Boston is the outlier, as they brought in Coyle and Johansson who didn't light up the regular season but have been good in the playoffs.


Now I realize the issue with Bennett is what he brings besides points, but if you're top 6 guy is producing that little, that's a serious depth issue.

Bennett was ppg in the playoffs he was not one of the reasons the Flames are not playing. Their superstar had 1 secondary assist. Monahan, Tkachuk, Lindholm all our up worse numbers than Bennett. The top guys couldn’t get it done that is why they are out.

[Toonage]

So frustrating. Feels like the stats tell us what he should be but his finish tells us what he is.

No more than $2.5M a year I'm guessing.

Evolving Wild has him pegged at $2.847M for 3 years

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Toonage

So frustrating. Feels like the stats tell us what he should be but his finish tells us what he is.

No more than $2.5M a year I'm guessing.

Evolving Wild has him pegged at $2.847M for 3 years

This is where I am too.

It's great that he drives play and generates good things, but the puck doesn't go in the net, and it can't all be luck.

Bad shot, bad finishing instincts? Hopefully he can isolate and work on it.

Better to have a guy producing at a third line level that generates at a second line level I suppose, as at least there's a chance things get better.

But he's not a fourth liner.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Finally ...

Filtered NHL forwards down to the top ten teams (points wise, seemed the most fair way to draw a contender line).

Sam Bennetts rankings out of 135 forwards on these teams

Individual
Goals60 - 84th (3rd line)
PrimaryA60 - 39th (2nd line)
Shots60 - 63rd (3rd line)
ExpGoals60 - 28th (1st line)
IndividualCF60 - 49th (2nd line)
IndividualSCF60 - 22nd (1st line)
IndividualHDCF60 - 16th (1st line)

So yeah ... let the fourth line thing go.

Uh-oh. Time to move the goal posts again...

(FYI - I enjoy not having to look these stats up myself. Thanks!)

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Finally ...

Filtered NHL forwards down to the top ten teams (points wise, seemed the most fair way to draw a contender line).

Sam Bennetts rankings out of 135 forwards on these teams

Individual
Goals60 - 84th (3rd line)
PrimaryA60 - 39th (2nd line)
Shots60 - 63rd (3rd line)
ExpGoals60 - 28th (1st line)
IndividualCF60 - 49th (2nd line)
IndividualSCF60 - 22nd (1st line)
IndividualHDCF60 - 16th (1st line)

So yeah ... let the fourth line thing go.

It’s interesting that most consider Sam’s performance in the Colorado series a real bright spot from the eye test, but IIRC his Corsi and High Danger splits were awful. Maybe they were still better than most other Flames that series?

He did have some production though. Kind of a flip of the regular season.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Finally ...

Filtered NHL forwards down to the top ten teams (points wise, seemed the most fair way to draw a contender line).

Sam Bennetts rankings out of 135 forwards on these teams

Individual
Goals60 - 84th (3rd line)
PrimaryA60 - 39th (2nd line)
Shots60 - 63rd (3rd line)
ExpGoals60 - 28th (1st line)
IndividualCF60 - 49th (2nd line)
IndividualSCF60 - 22nd (1st line)
IndividualHDCF60 - 16th (1st line)

So yeah ... let the fourth line thing go.

What about Tangible points.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

This is where I am too.

It's great that he drives play and generates good things, but the puck doesn't go in the net, and it can't all be luck.

Bad shot, bad finishing instincts? Hopefully he can isolate and work on it.

Better to have a guy producing at a third line level that generates at a second line level I suppose, as at least there's a chance things get better.

But he's not a fourth liner.

He scored 33% of his points in 24% of his icetime with Backlund and Tkachuk.

Outside of that, he produced at a 4th line rate and there were 3 players on the Flames roster who were statistically better in basically every offensive category getting the same rough minutes.

For the love of god stop talking about his high danger scoring chances and talk about his actual, tangible offense.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

It’s interesting that most consider Sam’s performance in the Colorado series a real bright spot from the eye test, but IIRC his Corsi and High Danger splits were awful. Maybe they were still better than most other Flames that series?

He did have some production though. Kind of a flip of the regular season.

So when the team gets outshot in the neighbourhood of 2-1, giving up 50 shots in regulation, stats that are based on shot counts will be awful.

Kind of a flip of the regular season.