Hong Kong Activist Joshua Wong quits and other China news

[CaptainCrunch]

Yeah, China was on my bucket list, but I've stroked that one off.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by 81MC

...so just to be clear:
The CCP is a terrible authoritarian government that needs to stop their human rights violations and arbitrary, politically motivated detentions.

Now I've committed a 'criminal' act and could expect to be detained if I enter that nation? Lol

Seriously though, yeah.

Never ever going there.

[81MC]

Jesus Christ that is frightening. Seriously, it's high time responsible democracies stop dealing with that place. Chinese ownership of of key global infrastructure needs to stop. No, it isn't anti-Asian sentiment, it's anti-actual facism.

[Huntingwhale]

While it's nice the Canadian Government has updated their travel site to warn about visit China, they need to go beyond simply posting on the travel site and take action; start restricting visas of all kind to Canada for applicants from China. Severely restrict the number of visitor, student and business visas being issued.

Canada has never had a problem restricting visas for many eastern European countries and African countries, which makes it very difficult for those citizens to visit. There are only ~50 countries which are allowed non-visa entry to Canada due to stringent policies those countries must adhere to, including human rights (which has been clear as day for a while that China does not adhere to). It's actually an ordeal to get a visa to Canada from certain countries if you are not on the visa-free list, or live in a country that has more lax visa requirement. Certain countries in the past such as Belarus were at one time appointed easy visa entry to Canada, but due to the blatant corruption in their country it was revoked after a couple months.

Although China doesn't fit the criteria for non-visa entry, it's still easy for them to obtain a visa to Canada as their requirement are much more lax. They can go to any visa center in China, apply and easily obtain a 5-10 year multiple entry permit. Meanwhile I can't even get a visitor visa for my Ukrainian in-laws to have a simple 2 week visit after multiple attempts and Ukraine is nowhere near the national threat that China currently is.

It's time to change the rules on that and severely restrict visas issued for China. I'm not a Trudeau hater but I can't stand his weak-ass stance on China right now, while the majority of the country is screaming for action. Restricting issued visas, which Canada already does for many countries, is a good start.

[nik-]

But won't anyone think of the universities who count on that foreign student money!!!

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Yeah, China was on my bucket list, but I've stroked that one off.

My parents went there a couple years ago and said it was on of the most beautiful and unique places you could ever visit. Always wanted to go there, and still do. But until there are drastic changes there, yeah that's gonna be a hard no for the time being.

[Muta]

I'd love to go back to China, beautiful country and people. But, I cannot support that regime right now and therefore will not be taking my tourist dollars there until things change.

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

My parents went there a couple years ago and said it was on of the most beautiful and unique places you could ever visit. Always wanted to go there, and still do. But until there are drastic changes there, yeah that's gonna be a hard no for the time being.

Hong Kong and Shanghai are really cool, but I wasn't impressed with Beijing at all when I went to China. I hear Shenzhen and Guangzhou are just shiny, cookie cutter big cities that are too new to have any culture/history/personality.

The Tier 1 cities are on par with nameplate cities of any highly developed country, but the rest of China generally doesn't have anything that you won't see by visiting a nearby country where you won't be arbitrarily detained

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

While it's nice the Canadian Government has updated their travel site to warn about visit China, they need to go beyond simply posting on the travel site and take action; start restricting visas of all kind to Canada for applicants from China. Severely restrict the number of visitor, student and business visas being issued.

Canada has never had a problem restricting visas for many eastern European countries and African countries, which makes it very difficult for those citizens to visit. There are only ~50 countries which are allowed non-visa entry to Canada due to stringent policies those countries must adhere to, including human rights (which has been clear as day for a while that China does not adhere to). It's actually an ordeal to get a visa to Canada from certain countries if you are not on the visa-free list, or live in a country that has more lax visa requirement. Certain countries in the past such as Belarus were at one time appointed easy visa entry to Canada, but due to the blatant corruption in their country it was revoked after a couple months.

Although China doesn't fit the criteria for non-visa entry, it's still easy for them to obtain a visa to Canada as their requirement are much more lax. They can go to any visa center in China, apply and easily obtain a 5-10 year multiple entry permit. Meanwhile I can't even get a visitor visa for my Ukrainian in-laws to have a simple 2 week visit after multiple attempts and Ukraine is nowhere near the national threat that China currently is.

It's time to change the rules on that and severely restrict visas issued for China. I'm not a Trudeau hater but I can't stand his weak-ass stance on China right now, while the majority of the country is screaming for action. Restricting issued visas, which Canada already does for many countries, is a good start.

That would be a ridiculously stupid thing to do. If anything, Canada should be looking to capitalize on the US's stupidity with pushing foreign students and workers out of American companies and universities, as Canada could benefit from attracting top talent in the world in key industries.

Western countries taking positions that hurt the regular Chinese national who has just worked and studied hard to get opportunities abroad is only strengthening support for the CCP. Restricting visas for regular people and students will also only direct more of the global flow of top talent back towards China or towards other competitors on the global stage. It will accelerate Chinese universities and companies climbing to the top. The pipeline of people with incredible dedication to education that Girly referenced earlier is not something Canada should cut itself off from.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

That would be a ridiculously stupid thing to do. If anything, Canada should be looking to capitalize on the US's stupidity with pushing foreign students and workers out of American companies and universities, as Canada could benefit from attracting top talent in the world in key industries.

Western countries taking positions that hurt the regular Chinese national who has just worked and studied hard to get opportunities abroad is only strengthening support for the CCP. Restricting visas for regular people and students will also only direct more of the global flow of top talent back towards China or towards other competitors on the global stage. It will accelerate Chinese universities and companies climbing to the top. The pipeline of people with incredible dedication to education that Girly referenced earlier is not something Canada should cut itself off from.

Contrary to what the media or immigration-haters would have us believe, we are not an open border that anybody can enter when they want. Overall Canada is a difficult country to enter under most circumstances unless you are one of the countries which have lax visa conditions, which China currently does. I am advocating that China should no longer have those lax conditions due to their repulsive human rights oppression and now this incredibly threatening security law they have enacted. Will we lose out on top candidates from China for foreign students and workers? That's possible. But then that means Canada already "loses out" with other countries around the world due to our strict visa requirements. Where is the uproar for that?

There are 40 conditions a foreign country can adhere to, split into 7 categories which allow for lax entry conditions into Canada:

• socio-economic conditions
• immigration issues
• travel document integrity
• safety and security issues
• border management
• human rights issues
• bilateral considerations.

Going by that list Canada has stipulated, I immediately see 3 things that China violates. I'm not calling for an outright ban of Chinese nationals entering Canada. Of course we want skilled labor and top tier students coming here. I'm a big supporter of immigration in Canada as a whole and forever will be. But at some point Canada has to take a stand against the CCP threats and placing certain restrictions on visas is a way to do it. One of the ways countries around the world take stands against countries they have disagreements with is to restrict visa admissions from those countries. I have a friend who works for the government processing Visa applications and when my in-laws applications kept getting refused, I asked her if she could explain to me why that was. According to her, they have a non-public list that ranks all countries and their likelihood of admission into Canada. Only a certain number of applicants with certain backgrounds are allowed entry from the lower-tiered countries. Other countries like our allies and China are near the top. My whole point is that I think that needs to change in regards to China's ranking.

The federal response to the CCP has been piss poor. Someone correct me I'm wrong, but it's been almost nothing other then updating the travel website. Canada needs to send a message to China regarding their threats against us and we can take a stance by limiting the issuing of certain kinds of visas.

[JohnnyB]

Choosing visa restrictions as a way to take a stand is arbitrary and, I still contend, ridiculous. It will hurt Canada, strengthen support for the CCP among Chinese nationals and will not hurt China in any way.

The US and Australia are happily going headlong into labeling China an enemy. Canada should let them be at the front on this while looking to play the long game and not risking the interests of Canadians. Canadians will be better off with the government taking a measured diplomatic approach and targeting the benefits that Canada can gain from the hardline stance being taken by places like the US and Australia.

As much as it sucks that your family has difficulty with Canadian visas, the reality is that money talks and the Ukraine just doesn't have such a loud voice. The size of China's economy and the importance of China's economy to Canada necessitate China being treated differently.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Choosing visa restrictions as a way to take a stand is arbitrary and, I still contend, ridiculous. It will hurt Canada, strengthen support for the CCP among Chinese nationals and will not hurt China in any way.

The US and Australia are happily going headlong into labeling China an enemy. Canada should let them be at the front on this while looking to play the long game and not risking the interests of Canadians. Canadians will be better off with the government taking a measured diplomatic approach and targeting the benefits that Canada can gain from the hardline stance being taken by places like the US and Australia.

As much as it sucks that your family has difficulty with Canadian visas, the reality is that money talks and the Ukraine just doesn't have such a loud voice. The size of China's economy and the importance of China's economy to Canada necessitate China being treated differently.

That's ridiculous. Lets just compromise our values because money? I, for one, would be happy to never deal with China ever again. They make up 18% of the global population. I'll deal with the other 82%, thanks.


If you let them run roughshod over you, you just end up being their doormat. Clearly our strategy of using soft power to try to get them to respect international law, and treat humans with dignity and respect is not working. Time to cut them off.

[JohnnyB]

Well, it's hardly new for Canada to be critical of China's human rights record while being quick to welcome Chinese money.

Anyways, maybe you missed my first point, that targeting visas will hurt Canada, strengthen the CCP and not hurt China in any way. What is the point in choosing that method as a response? It's stupid. I would hope the government finds another, smarter way.

[burn_this_city]

I would be fine with reducing student visas. Mainland students are compelled by the CCP and peer pressure to avoid integrating with Canadian society and most leave Canada after graduating. Some do end up staying, but we would probably have better luck retaining graduates from other countries.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Choosing visa restrictions as a way to take a stand is arbitrary and, I still contend, ridiculous. It will hurt Canada, strengthen support for the CCP among Chinese nationals and will not hurt China in any way.

The US and Australia are happily going headlong into labeling China an enemy. Canada should let them be at the front on this while looking to play the long game and not risking the interests of Canadians. Canadians will be better off with the government taking a measured diplomatic approach and targeting the benefits that Canada can gain from the hardline stance being taken by places like the US and Australia.

As much as it sucks that your family has difficulty with Canadian visas, the reality is that money talks and the Ukraine just doesn't have such a loud voice. The size of China's economy and the importance of China's economy to Canada necessitate China being treated differently.

Sorry Johnny, you were making some sense the last couple of days but my opinion of you has completely changed with your last two posts. You can continue to tote that the middle class Chinese are no better than the Western world and your previous posts were persuading me. But what you don't seem to understand is that the world has to stand up to what China is doing. They are really erring towards decisions that could set up a very dangerous stance. I know some posters were upset with the Nazi comparison but whats so different? Censorship, genocide, humans rights violations, and no care for what the rest of the world thinks? I have to agree that they are trending in that direction is its terrifying.

Cut their visas, have some forceful political negotiations, and if so the world should seriously be as punitive as possible in relation to trade and economics for China. They don't deserve to be a super power and a world where they are is quite terrifying.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Well, it's hardly new for Canada to be critical of China's human rights record while being quick to welcome Chinese money.

Anyways, maybe you missed my first point, that targeting visas will hurt Canada, strengthen the CCP and not hurt China in any way. What is the point in choosing that method as a response? It's stupid. I would hope the government finds another, smarter way.

Because the action causes pain for the Chinese people, who, well, in a normal country, would lobby their government to smarten up. But it may also affect those higher up in the government. Who cares if it weakens our position relative to countries that want to kowtow to the Chinese? My point is we shouldn't be playing a game of appeasement with them.

The way the Chinese government has handled the Mengwai case, and Canada's opposition to what is going on in Hong Kong should be evidence enough they are not worth dealing with. Their actions are ridiculous(issuing a release to warn of the dangers of traveling to Canada, for instance), and counter to international law. Time to move on. The bully can find someone else to steal lunch money from.


Just reading your post again, you suggest Canada should be taking a measured approach...well we've been doing that for decades and look where it got us, and how China acts on the world stage, running roughshod over their borders, running concentration camps, etc. At what point do you acknowledge a measured approach doesn't work?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Because the action causes pain for the Chinese people, who, well, in a normal country, would lobby their government to smarten up. But it may also affect those higher up in the government. Who cares if it weakens our position relative to countries that want to kowtow to the Chinese? My point is we shouldn't be playing a game of appeasement with them.

The way the Chinese government has handled the Mengwai case, and Canada's opposition to what is going on in Hong Kong should be evidence enough they are not worth dealing with. Their actions are ridiculous(issuing a release to warn of the dangers of traveling to Canada, for instance), and counter to international law. Time to move on. The bully can find someone else to steal lunch money from.

This. Having a differing opinion to this completely baffles me.

[PeteMoss]

If Australia can take a stand against China with their dependence on them for their economy, I'm sure we can as well.

[JohnnyB]

I'm not saying Canada shouldn't take any stand. I'm saying visas are a stupid way to take a stand and the Canadian government should find better ways to do so if taking a stand is the intent. I'm also saying Canada should be cautious to take a stand according to Canadian interests, which include Canadian values, rather than getting caught up alongside American and Australian positions that are pretty extreme. Does Canada really want to be aligned with the values of the current US and Australia?

I don't take offense when Pete Moss says I'm in a bubble, because we're all ultimately in bubbles. I understand that, but I've also split my adult life between Canada and China, and following the relationship between China and the West has been a big part of that for over a decade. And, I'm not even a supporter of the CCP. If anything I have been a strong detractor. There are serious and legitimate concerns that I recognize, probably much more poignantly than others on this site as I am actually impacted by them and so are my friends. But I also think that the popular narratives about China in Canada are still largely driven by ignorance. Over the years that ignorance has moved from lack of interest, to naive interest and hype to now fearful ignorance bordering on xenophobia associated with growing populist nationalism. Many views here are also formed in bubbles and people should be less quick to react emotionally based on pretty limited or one sided info.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

If Australia can take a stand against China with their dependence on them for their economy, I'm sure we can as well.

I think considering that, we would be remiss not to.

Canada on it's own is not that consequential and taking a stand against them probably would hurt us more than them. But a consolidated stand from multiple low-level international players might have an effect.

Having said that, Australia despite having a smaller population, is a more significant country in that hemisphere. But still, it isn't without risk that they are doing it.