[Trade] Hurricanes trade Fox to NYR for 2nd+Cond. 3rd UPD: Fox signs ELC

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Only if you live in an alternate reality where highly drafted major junior players forego the first several years of their North American pro careers. Care to name some high-profile examples?

Why is it so hard to admit that while the rules may be technically the same, there are factors that make college players far more likely to ride out those 4 years and go to UFA than major junior players.

Sure ncaa players are more likely...but that doesnt change what the rules are.

Truth is it is pretty rare for even college kids to do it as well.

Its way way overblown and continues to be called a "loophole", which is simply false.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Sure ncaa players are more likely...but that doesnt change what the rules are.

Truth is it is pretty rare for even college kids to do it as well.

Its way way overblown and continues to be called a "loophole", which is simply false.

agree...

not sure how its a loophole when the 4 year signing window prior to achiving UFA status applies to European prospects, NCAA prospects and CHL prospects (with the double draft process)

its written in the CBA; its not a gap in the rules that isn't covered, which is what a loophole generally is.

[Party Elephant]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

Correct.

while a CHL player would have to get drafted twice, in terms of the amount of time to achieving UFA status, its still four years.

Agreed, it is the same amount of time for everyone. But for an NCAA player it is 4 years of highly competitive and scouted hockey. For a CHL player it is 2 years of competitive hockey (3 if a team will take them as an overager) followed by 1-2 years in no man's land.

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

ending amateur status is something that is different between CHL and NCAA however, so there is less of a incentive not to sign as a CHL player, unless you really don't want to go to Edmonton

Also agreed. Being able to play in a developmental league while signed to an NHL contract is a huge incentive for these players to sign with the team that originally drafted them.

[Party Elephant]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

agree...

not sure how its a loophole when the 4 year signing window prior to achiving UFA status applies to European prospects, NCAA prospects and CHL prospects (with the double draft process)

its written in the CBA; its not a gap in the rules that isn't covered, which is what a loophole generally is.

I never called it a loophole ( although I'll acknowledge it is commonly called that).

There are fundamental differences in circumstances for the different paths though, which is why we have several examples of NCAA players holding out until free agency and no examples so far of CHL players doing the same.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Wish nothing but the worst for Fox. No injuries, just not as great as he thinks he is.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

Not really.

Carolina got:
1 year of Ferland
3 years of Hamilton
2 - 2nds

Flames got:
6 years of Hanifin
6 years of Linholm

Yet the majority of Calgary Puck wanted to fire Treliving when the trade went down.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Party Elephant

Agreed, it is the same amount of time for everyone. But for an NCAA player it is 4 years of highly competitive and scouted hockey. For a CHL player it is 2 years of competitive hockey (3 if a team will take them as an overager) followed by 1-2 years in no man's land.



Also agreed. Being able to play in a developmental league while signed to an NHL contract is a huge incentive for these players to sign with the team that originally drafted them.

Well, so long as the kid hasn't signed with an agent or taken money, he could sign with an NCAA team those 2 years as i understand it.

For American kids, the university sports route is different, IMO, playing for your favorite NCAA team can be alluring in and of itself...

Harvard, and all the Ivies are a different animal; not only are the education standards higher, and not "relaxed for athletes", Ivies do not give out athletic scholarships. They give out academic and financial hardship scholarships based on merit and need respectively.

I think Fox's motivations are a bit of an outlier as a result...he's more than happy to finish out his Harvard degree unless the NHL opportunity is something that is too hard to turn down.

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Yet the majority of Calgary Puck wanted to fire Treliving when the trade went down.

Not really relevant. The comment was that Carolina did well in the end. I still think they lost this trade today. Reactions at the time of the trade don't really matter now that Lindholm put up 78, Hanifin has established himself as a legit top 4 D, and both signed to 6 year team friendly deals.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

We threw in a 5th rounder as well.

Trade was basically a 1st round pick and a 5th round pick for two 2nd round picks and a former 5th round pick.

In the Fox trade it is basically a 3rd round pick for a 2nd rounder and a 3rd which may turn into a 2nd round pick.

I would say objectively Fox brought back a bigger return.

Fox's value is not a 3rd round pick. Where he was drafted originally has very little relevance to his current value. It's hard to know, but I think when he was included in the Canes deal, his value was probably around a late 1st. He consistently is listed in top prospects list. And in fact i would say that when Fox was dealt he was more highly touted than when Erixon was.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

Well, so long as the kid hasn't signed with an agent or taken money, he could sign with an NCAA team those 2 years as i understand it.

For American kids, the university sports route is different, IMO, playing for your favorite NCAA team can be alluring in and of itself...

Harvard, and all the Ivies are a different animal; not only are the education standards higher, and not "relaxed for athletes", Ivies do not give out athletic scholarships. They give out academic and financial hardship scholarships based on merit and need respectively.

I think Fox's motivations are a bit of an outlier as a result...he's more than happy to finish out his Harvard degree unless the NHL opportunity is something that is too hard to turn down.

And in this case i think its as simple as a hometown kid wanting to play at home and likely knew early that it was an option for him if he so chose.

Really no more and no less.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by AC

Anaheim booed him relentlessly.

I was actually quite impressed by them doing it too. We often think of Anaheim fans as being less plugged-in to things like that, but they really let him have it.

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

Not really. Erixon was CHL and was going back into the draft with the purpose of either being drafted by the Rangers or waiting two more years. Yes, I realize I have no proof, but that's seemed to be where he was heading. The biggest difference is that NCAA players leave with a degree. CHL player really get nothing but the shaft for benefit to hold out.

EDIT: Erixon wasn't CHL, he was SEL. But similar situation.

After Erixon did what he did, they changed the rules for European players so that their rights are now owned by their drafting team for 4 years too.

CHL players are now the only ones whose rights are held for only 2 years before they re-enter the draft.

[Party Elephant]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Yet the majority of Calgary Puck wanted to fire Treliving when the trade went down.

Jesus, no. A very vocal minority wanted to fire Treliving.

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

Well, so long as the kid hasn't signed with an agent or taken money, he could sign with an NCAA team those 2 years as i understand it.

Seems like a pretty convoluted way to end up on the NCAA path but I guess it's possible. Again, are there any real world examples of this or is it just hypothetical?

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

For American kids, the university sports route is different, IMO, playing for your favorite NCAA team can be alluring in and of itself...

Harvard, and all the Ivies are a different animal; not only are the education standards higher, and not "relaxed for athletes", Ivies do not give out athletic scholarships. They give out academic and financial hardship scholarships based on merit and need respectively.

I think Fox's motivations are a bit of an outlier as a result...he's more than happy to finish out his Harvard degree unless the NHL opportunity is something that is too hard to turn down.

I agree with all of this except Fox being an outlier. Fox is in that niche of college players who are good enough to have multiple teams interested in signing him as a UFA. It's been a legitimate option for him for at least the last year or so. The Harvard degree only incentivises it further.

There may only be one or two every year, or every other year even, but it has happened numerous times under the current rules and in all likelihood will happen more in the future.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by transplant99

And in this case i think its as simple as a hometown kid wanting to play at home and likely knew early that it was an option for him if he so chose.

Really no more and no less.

Should have played for NYI then

Jericho NY, where Fox is from, is on Long Island, in Nassau County.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

Well, so long as the kid hasn't signed with an agent or taken money, he could sign with an NCAA team those 2 years as i understand it.

No, that is not possible.

Any player who has played in the CHL is ineligible to play in the NCAA. That's why players like Cale Makar, who intend to go to the NCAA, play in the AJHL or equivalent until they're college-ready.

Under the NCAA rules, the CHL is considered a pro league because the players receive living expenses while playing. They have even ruled that players who have only attended a CHL training camp are ineligible.


A player who is no longer eligible to play in the CHL who doesn't want to sign with the team that drafted him could go play in Europe or play Canadian University hockey in the interim. As far as I know, no CHL player has ever chosen to go down that road, but I suppose it could happen someday. It's likely the team who holds his rights would trade him before it came to that.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Party Elephant

Jesus, no. A very vocal minority wanted to fire Treliving.

Seems like a pretty convoluted way to end up on the NCAA path but I guess it's possible. Again, are there any real world examples of this or is it just hypothetical?




I agree with all of this except Fox being an outlier. Fox is in that niche of college players who are good enough to have multiple teams interested in signing him as a UFA. It's been a legitimate option for him for at least the last year or so. The Harvard degree only incentivises it further.

There may only be one or two every year, or every other year even, but it has happened numerous times under the current rules and in all likelihood will happen more in the future.

i'd have to see if there are any cases of this, as most kids want to be in the NHL, so they sign if they are offered a contract and pop the champagne.

Within the rules as they are written however, if you have amateur status you have eligibility in the NCAA. There are numerous examples in other sports, even guys that have signed and played double A baseball going back into college to play football.

Kyle Murray did just that with the As, before deciding he'd rather play football... not sure how the eligibility worked there, but it did.

it remains to be seen whether this is something that becomes more prevalent or not... Fox is a kid that blew up a bit in college, otherwise he would not have fallen to the 3rd round.

NHL teams know about the rules, but still continue to draft kids going to the NCAA... so until the CBA changes, its a bit of 'buyer beware' imo...

At the end of the day, these kids aren't submitting their names to be drafted; they get drafted whether they want to or not...People may hate it and not wish him well, but Fox hasn't done anything wrong except for offending a couple of fanbases...

[Dube]

Good for him. Playing by the rules. Not sure how people get so upset.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Yet the majority of Calgary Puck wanted to fire Treliving when the trade went down.

I wouldn’t call it the majority but there sure were a lot of pissed off fans when that deal went down The fan base was very much split on Hamilton and those that were not his biggest fans typically liked the trade. The rumor 2 days before that deal went down was Hamilton for both of them so including Fox and Ferland was overkill. No way was Hamilton worth 2 recent former top 5 picks.

[1991 Canadian]

I am surprised at the amount of ill will towards Fox.

He would have been 4th or 5th on the Flames RHD depth chart if he signed this summer or last. It was almost guaranteed he would have to spend 1-2 years in the AHL if he signed with the Flames. Similar situation in Carolina. Calgary and Carolina arguably have some of the best organizational defensive depth in the entire NHL. I would choose to ride things out at Harvard as well if I was in his shoes.

The Flames had a perfect example of this in Kylington. He has shown he is an NHL caliber defenceman. He was stuck in the minors for the first two months of the year until Valimaki got injured. If Valimaki did not get injured, Kylington would have spent the entire year in the AHL and would have forfeited hundreds of thousands in salary in the process.

This is real money. I get paying your dues, earning your spot, etc…, but sometimes there is not space on the roster for deep teams. The Flames currently have 9 NHL caliber defenceman on the roster. Only 6 get to play.

This seems like a win-win-win-win to me. Calgary was able to maximize Fox's value with the Carolina trade and get two key players back. Carolina got a pretty good return for a player who didn’t want to sign with them. New York gets a great prospect, arguably a late 1st round value in a redraft. Fox gets to play close to home (and potentially finish his Harvard degree if he goes that route).

I hope Fox kills it. It would be cool to look back and have a “wow, I can’t believe the Flames drafted and had Andersson, Valimaki, Fox and Kylington all in the system together at one time” moment.

[dammage79]

Fox is a great fit for that rebuilding Rangers team. Glass we used his rights to lubricate the Lindholm trade. Also savvy move by Tree to get something he wanted out of Fox. Flames alscouts were bullish on Fox, too bad he was always going to go to the rangers.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I think this situation is different enough from Erixon that I've no need to feel bitter about him. He didn't lie about his intentions right up to the signing deadline while simultaneously engaging in massive tampering with the Rangers.

Yeah, I feel no ill-will towards him. If anything it's that dumb NCAA rule that makes it exploitable. I'll never think bad of someone who is upfront about what they want in their career (in this case, not signing with the Flames and wanting to play for the NYR) and takes advantage of it when they have a chance to do so. Pretty sure many of us would exploit the companies we work for in a similar way if it meant heading down the career path we wanted. Hockey players are no different.

Erixon and his agent lied and actually tried to hurt the Flames. Sounds like Treliving asked Fox a question about his intentions, and Fox was straight up and honest. IMO they are not similar situations.

One played it with no class and deserves what he got in terms of his career arch.

The other was upfront, honest and simply took advantage of an in-place rule, which allowed himself to be traded for a great return.