Do you understand that my points in response to HuntingWhale have all been about how stupid it is to target visas in particular?
The issue of visas is also not, as Girly suggests, about us wanting cheaper products. The issue of visas is largely about selling our cultural experiences and educational products where Chinese are the customers, and in the case of students they are customers actually paying for Canadian institutions to tell them how to think. What is the point in targeting that of all things?
I mean, CaptainCrunch points out the trade imbalance as a problem, but selling fewer Canadian products to Chinese consumers is a good thing?
There actually is a strategic benefit for Canada in selling Canadian cultural and educational products and I don't see any compromise of Canadian values in continuing to do so.
Not all customers are good customers. And I don't believe that Canadian institutions have much sway in how Chinese students think. They have already spent their formative years in the Chinese system, in my brief and anecdotal experience with a Chinese roommate, there was no way he was modifying his views.
I don't care about a trade imbalance with China. They aren't our only customer, and if we could bring exports and imports to zero with them, I'd be fine with that. Why don't we help develop industries in our backyard in central and south America? That's one of our biggest missteps, but also our biggest opportunity.
Not all customers are good customers. And I don't believe that Canadian institutions have much sway in how Chinese students think. They have already spent their formative years in the Chinese system, in my brief and anecdotal experience with a Chinese roommate, there was no way he was modifying his views.
I don't care about a trade imbalance with China. They aren't our only customer, and if we could bring exports and imports to zero with them, I'd be fine with that. Why don't we help develop industries in our backyard in central and south America? That's one of our biggest missteps, but also our biggest opportunity.
For a long time, most people in the West have just seen the economic benefits of doing business with China, and not cared so much about the bad socially they are. Just as long as labor is cheap, products are cheap and profits are up. It's all good.
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For a long time, most people in the West have just seen the economic benefits of doing business with China, and not cared so much about the bad socially they are. Just as long as labor is cheap, products are cheap and profits are up. It's all good.
The irony is that moving manufacturing to other low-cost centers, as has already been happening with Vietnam, Bangladesh, Myanmar etc. means actually moving manufacturing back to places where factories are less developed, less well regulated and more likely to have unsafe worker conditions, child labor and corruption.
If people in Canada only want to adhere to the ethical standards and practices of domestic industry, they better accept only doing business in Western countries. Fine if that's what people want. If not, then regardless of where else you go, there are stages of development that countries go through, and there are different cultural values. That means doing business that supports some people and practices you probably do not like.
It's easy to turn a blind eye to these relationships for the average consumer, as long as those people don't eventually come and buy houses in your neighborhood or send their kids to uni along with yours. That's the way it has been before and the way it will likely continue being. It's not as if 2020 is the first time people in Canada have heard of human rights abuses in countries where manufacturing happens, and it's also not as though the changes being pushed in product sourcing now are primarily about human rights either. As Nik has pointed out, these changes were already taking place, and it had nothing to do with human rights issues.
Of course, if companies and regulators did demand strict adherence to Western standards that eliminated outsourcing of work to developing markets where these sorts of things happen, it would also make it much more difficult for people in those markets to climb out of poverty. It would mean continuing high levels of child mortality, deaths from curable diseases, lack of education and associated societal ills.
Personally, I'm of the view that billions of people climbing up out of poverty is worth it. Children having enough food, education, housing and healthcare is worth all sorts of unethical business practices in my mind. So is the fact that countries with integrated economies are much less likely to go to war. What good will it do the Uighurs or political dissidents in Hong Kong if China and the West become separated? Would anyone believe that we should expect more peaceful and prosperous development out of that circumstance? The negatives have already just been accelerating with Trump's trade war and hostilities.
So, I am on the side of Western cultural values, but I care less about whether the world is shaped according to Western values or Chinese values and I can more about the economic development of humanity such that basic horrors associated with poverty and war can be minimized. As a Canadian millennial from a middleclass background, I also recognize that globalization has reduced the economic advantages for me and my generation relative to what enabled prosperity for my parents, but I consider that loss in my community versus the elimination of horrific suffering for hundreds of millions of people as a good thing for the world on the whole.
I also hope to live in a world where there are hundreds of millions or billions more minds working at full potential to solve our problems. Will that, again, reduce the value of my human capital as an educated Westerner in a global marketplace? Of course. But to the extent that all of that potential is activated and integrated with each other in a global economy I believe we stand to have a better human experience overall, and that is more important to me.
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Not all customers are good customers. And I don't believe that Canadian institutions have much sway in how Chinese students think. They have already spent their formative years in the Chinese system, in my brief and anecdotal experience with a Chinese roommate, there was no way he was modifying his views.
I don't care about a trade imbalance with China. They aren't our only customer, and if we could bring exports and imports to zero with them, I'd be fine with that. Why don't we help develop industries in our backyard in central and south America? That's one of our biggest missteps, but also our biggest opportunity.
It should really go without saying, but that's a pretty awful basis for judging the 140,000 or so other Chinese students in Canada. That's virtually on par with the Chinese ignoramus who thinks all Uighurs are thieves because he got robbed by one on the train one day.
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The irony is that moving manufacturing to other low-cost centers, as has already been happening with Vietnam, Bangladesh, Myanmar etc. means actually moving manufacturing back to places where factories are less developed, less well regulated and more likely to have unsafe worker conditions, child labor and corruption.
If people in Canada only want to adhere to the ethical standards and practices of domestic industry, they better accept only doing business in Western countries. Fine if that's what people want. If not, then regardless of where else you go, there are stages of development that countries go through, and there are different cultural values. That means doing business that supports some people and practices you probably do not like.
It's easy to turn a blind eye to these relationships for the average consumer, as long as those people don't eventually come and buy houses in your neighborhood or send their kids to uni along with yours. That's the way it has been before and the way it will likely continue being. It's not as if 2020 is the first time people in Canada have heard of human rights abuses in countries where manufacturing happens, and it's also not as though the changes being pushed in product sourcing now are primarily about human rights either. As Nik has pointed out, these changes were already taking place, and it had nothing to do with human rights issues.
Of course, if companies and regulators did demand strict adherence to Western standards that eliminated outsourcing of work to developing markets where these sorts of things happen, it would also make it much more difficult for people in those markets to climb out of poverty. It would mean continuing high levels of child mortality, deaths from curable diseases, lack of education and associated societal ills.
Personally, I'm of the view that billions of people climbing up out of poverty is worth it. Children having enough food, education, housing and healthcare is worth all sorts of unethical business practices in my mind. So is the fact that countries with integrated economies are much less likely to go to war. What good will it do the Uighurs or political dissidents in Hong Kong if China and the West become separated? Would anyone believe that we should expect more peaceful and prosperous development out of that circumstance? The negatives have already just been accelerating with Trump's trade war and hostilities.
So, I am on the side of Western cultural values, but I care less about whether the world is shaped according to Western values or Chinese values and I can more about the economic development of humanity such that basic horrors associated with poverty and war can be minimized. As a Canadian millennial from a middleclass background, I also recognize that globalization has reduced the economic advantages for me and my generation relative to what enabled prosperity for my parents, but I consider that loss in my community versus the elimination of horrific suffering for hundreds of millions of people as a good thing for the world on the whole.
I also hope to live in a world where there are hundreds of millions or billions more minds working at full potential to solve our problems. Will that, again, reduce the value of my human capital as an educated Westerner in a global marketplace? Of course. But to the extent that all of that potential is activated and integrated with each other in a global economy I believe we stand to have a better human experience overall, and that is more important to me.
This is where I struggle the most. Sure, it's good to bring people out of poverty but I don't know if the West should be doing it. There should be a better way. People should not be so poor that paying them $5 an hour is more than their wildest dreams. That should be the responsibility of the governing structure of that government. Most countries in the world are corrupt at the top. Why can't China have a social structure that brings people out of poverty. For example the minimum wage in China is $4/hr. And that's in the big cities. Why?
And Africa, we've been giving them aid for decades and the president for life just takes all of it. I recently transcribed a show talking about how the former Angolan president stole 100 billion dollars. Countries depending on the West to bring industry to the country so both sides can take the bulk off the top and leave peanuts to the workers has been going on for too long.
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Last edited by GirlySports; 07-09-2020 at 08:49 PM.
Do you mean universities should stop allowing foreigners to attend Canadian universities?
No, I'm saying we shouldn't view it as a threat or a huge negative if people who want to come to our Universities and then leave to apply their educations for the betterment of other countries stop coming. Foreign students are fine, but we should in no way be beholden to them
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No, I'm saying we shouldn't view it as a threat or a huge negative if people who want to come to our Universities and then leave to apply their educations for the betterment of other countries stop coming. Foreign students are fine, but we should in no way be beholden to them
I was reading that several British universities may go bankrupt due to the shortage of international students in the upcoming semester. Due to the loss of foreign students it's reported that the annual income in the UK for higher education will be almost halved. A lot of Western universities depend on foreign students tuitions.
So it's not like it's some altruistic thing. Universities ripoff foreign students big time.
I was reading that several British universities may go bankrupt due to the shortage of international students in the upcoming semester. Due to the loss of foreign students it's reported that the annual income in the UK for higher education will be almost halved. A lot of Western universities depend on foreign students tuitions.
So it's not like it's some altruistic thing. Universities ripoff foreign students big time.
Yeah, it's not charity. The money also isn't feeding better education. It's feeding exploding administration and executive salary, so maybe it's medicine these institutions need to eat. They can start to treat themselves as centers of education and not hedge funds.
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Yeah, it's not charity. The money also isn't feeding better education. It's feeding exploding administration and executive salary, so maybe it's medicine these institutions need to eat. They can start to treat themselves as centers of education and not hedge funds.
I agree with the university's having bloated budgets and wasting money on new buildings and other crap that is basically just too show off.
But I don't understand the problem with foreign students coming to the west to study and then returning to their countries. I'm just interested in your reasoning.
Hong Kong media tycoon, one of the richest in the city and owner of several news publications in HK, arrested and charged with "collusion with foreign powers" under the National Security law. Another pro-democracy activist leader, Agnes Chow, has also been arrested and charged with the same thing.
They sent a stupid amount of cops to arrest Jimmy Lai. (200 cops to arrest 1 guy)
