American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[GirlySports]

I don't think CNN is that left probably should in the 2nd column.

BBC in the middle is a joke. They should off the charts left.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I don't think CNN is that left probably should in the 2nd column.

BBC in the middle is a joke. They should off the charts left.

Uh...No to both of your points.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I don't think CNN is that left probably should in the 2nd column.

BBC in the middle is a joke. They should off the charts left.

The BBC? No. Are you thinking of the guardian?

Also, go to their website. They have a methodology, seems fairly rigorous. One thing I'm not sure sure they measure is the choice of what to cover.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

And the left media position of vaccinated people who get COVID can no longer spread it or voter ID laws are racist is less crazy?

Voter ID laws are racist, that's the intent of them in the US, to stop colored people and poor people in general from voting

[GirlySports]

It's ID. Everyone has ID.

I will agree that things like not having voting stations with 100 miles of a black town or closing polls early before black people get off work is racist and frankly that's cheating. But ID is ID.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

You make a really good 2nd point on healthcare. Healthcare in the US is free market gone wrong. Everything is more expensive the higher the demand is. Drugs are more expensive, staff salaries are higher, equipment is more expensive, admin costs are higher, therefore for profit hospitals charge more and therefore premiums go up and the government pays the balance left over.

That said, I don't know how single payer would get incorporated into this broken system without costing more.

I think it's simple. Decide on what basic care entails, and make it illegal for private companies to sell insurance including the items covered by the public system. The people that want to be covered for extra items (dentistry or whatever) can purchase the insurance in a familiar way.

It doesn't have to be fit into the system. It never did. Coverage for everyone would be seamless, with the only outlier being the initial cost between implementation and the next tax season. I would suggest using the additional $700B that Biden just added to the defense budget.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

It's ID. Everyone has ID.

I will agree that things like not having voting stations with 100 miles of a black town or closing polls early before black people get off work is racist and frankly that's cheating. But ID is ID.

Around 10% of US voters dont have ID, they are almost all rural elderly poor and black demographically, which is why the GOP wants to bring in ID laws, its simple, they dont drive, dont have a car, cant afford, dont need or have ID.

On top of that there has never been a problem with fake voting ever at the house or Presidential level, the shear numbers make it pointless, where as stopping people from voting has long been how white america has kept minorities down

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Around 10% of US voters dont have ID, they are almost all rural elderly poor and black demographically, which is why the GOP wants to bring in ID laws, its simple, they dont drive, dont have a car, cant afford, dont need or have ID.

I don't understand how people wouldn't have some type ID. Wouldn't they need it for social assistance programs, welfare or any other reason? With no ID do they show up in any other govt. database at all? If they really have no ID could they get money from the govt? If they do, I don't think it would be cash, so they might need a bank account. I really am not sure how someone could have no ID in this age, unless completely homeless, which as a demographic likely doesn't have high rate of voting.
Is it a worse problem if no ID is required to vote? Wouldn't that be a worse thing overall allowing parties to cheat easier?
Genuinely curious

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by jonesy

I don't understand how people wouldn't have some type ID. Wouldn't they need it for social assistance programs, welfare or any other reason? With no ID do they show up in any other govt. database at all? If they really have no ID could they get money from the govt? If they do, I don't think it would be cash, so they might need a bank account. I really am not sure how someone could have no ID in this age, unless completely homeless, which as a demographic likely doesn't have high rate of voting.
Is it a worse problem if no ID is required to vote? Wouldn't that be a worse thing overall allowing parties to cheat easier?
Genuinely curious

Exactly my thoughts. I'm baffled as to why you don't need one to vote in the first place.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by jonesy

I don't understand how people wouldn't have some type ID. Wouldn't they need it for social assistance programs, welfare or any other reason? With no ID do they show up in any other govt. database at all? If they really have no ID could they get money from the govt? If they do, I don't think it would be cash, so they might need a bank account. I really am not sure how someone could have no ID in this age, unless completely homeless, which as a demographic likely doesn't have high rate of voting.
Is it a worse problem if no ID is required to vote? Wouldn't that be a worse thing overall allowing parties to cheat easier?
Genuinely curious

the ability to affect a legitimate election beyond the level of city dog catcher requires tens of thousands of ballots, all those ballots need an address and a name, they have to be applied for, in itself this would me a massive task requiring several hundred people, somehow you have to intercept the voter cards before they arrive at the addresses that have to be real to get accepted.

Now you have to head down to the polling station and vote, you would need hundreds maybe thousands of fake voters to reasonably allign with the fake ballots you have somehow managed to pull off, they need to know the name and address of who they are supposed to be, they cant vote twice in the same station.
The scale and complexity of it, coupled with the huge chance of it all falling apart and everyone going to jail for a crime with no financial payoff makes it an absurd idea and no one would bother.

There are two ways you fix an election, ballot stuffing, which is the russian third world favourite, the party in power just takes the ballot boxes from the polling stations openly and tears up the real ballots and shoves in their own, or just tears up the ones for the opposition party before it gives the ballot boxes back, this is pretty much done in the open, no one thinks its a fair election.
Then there is the US way which is to just minimise the colored vote, gerrymander the districts or bring in voter laws to disqualify colored voters, like ID laws.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Exactly my thoughts. I'm baffled as to why you don't need one to vote in the first place.

Philosophically Because we are not legally required to have ID and the right to vote in a democracy is absolute, practically because the level of voter fraud is so utterly minimal, maybe 20 or 30 cases an election where someone votes for their bedridden mother or the like, in every case of known voter fraud it has proved to be individuals voting by mistake or maybe even knowingly but there has never been an organised attempt to rig an election this way, the reason is simple, the only party that could get away with it would have to be in power in the first place and so they dont need to do it, they will resort to open vote rigging not ballot fraud.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

It's ID. Everyone has ID.

I will agree that things like not having voting stations with 100 miles of a black town or closing polls early before black people get off work is racist and frankly that's cheating. But ID is ID.

These laws require voters to present a government-issued photo ID in order to vote, and they offer no meaningful fallback options for people who do not possess one of these IDs. Like their Jim Crow predecessors, strict voter ID laws are often defended by reference to a racially neutral need to defend the “integrity” of elections. Specifically, defenders claim that voter ID laws are needed to combat voter impersonation fraud. But study after study has shown that voter impersonation fraud is vanishingly rare.

Many also claim that these laws impose little burden because everyone has the requisite ID — but the reality is that millions of Americans don’t, and they are disproportionately people of color.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-wo...er-suppression

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

...
Then there is the US way which is to just minimise the colored vote, gerrymander the districts or bring in voter laws to disqualify colored voters, like ID laws.

I looked up poverty rate by ethnicity. (kff.org Home/State Health Facts/Demographics and the Economy/People in Poverty/Poverty Rate by Race/Ethnicity) (no idea how valid it is, but assuming it is somewhat accurate)
2019: 12.3% of Americans below poverty line. 21.2% of those were 'black' or 'colored' as you say.
How would you know you were not just excluding Hispanic, white, multiple race or native poor people with an ID law?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by jonesy

I looked up poverty rate by ethnicity. (kff.org Home/State Health Facts/Demographics and the Economy/People in Poverty/Poverty Rate by Race/Ethnicity) (no idea how valid it is, but assuming it is somewhat accurate)
2019: 12.3% of Americans below poverty line. 21.2% of those were 'black' or 'colored' as you say.
How would you know you were not just excluding Hispanic, white, multiple race or native poor people with an ID law?

I dont think they care if they exclude all of them

[GGG]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

It's ID. Everyone has ID.

I will agree that things like not having voting stations with 100 miles of a black town or closing polls early before black people get off work is racist and frankly that's cheating. But ID is ID.

You are looking at this from the wrong perspective.

Any law that limits peoples ability to vote no matter how benign should be backed by evidence that there is a problem needing to be solved.

So unless you can demonstrate widespread voter fraud due to lack of an ID requirement then it doesn’t matter if “everyone has one”

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I dont think they care if they exclude all of them

Then that's not racist. I think the Democrats are fighting the wrong fight here. Why fight voting laws? Why don't the Democrats subsidize a program to get people ID? It doesn't even have to be a govt program, rich politicians or celebs could do it, heck Oprah alone could do it. This would be the ultimate ground game. Be GOP a-hole proof.

I understand why some blacks don't have ID. Papers are missing, no birth certificate, werent born in a hospital etc... but these things can be solved by money, couple hundred dollars per person. Democrats should front this.

I don't understand why Latinos don't have ID. They came later and mostly live in cities

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Allsides.com... They have a methodology, seems fairly rigorous. One thing I'm not sure sure they measure is the choice of what to cover.

That's quite some methodology. Built on conjecture and opinion. Sorry, that would never pass muster in peer review. Allsides.com ratings are crap and anyone with a functioning brain and 30 seconds can figure it out. It's actually embarrassing to see anyone toss this site out and not understand it was started by Republican operatives to try and slander the traditional media - those that actually follow standards of journalistic integrity - and promote those that promote disinformation and "alternative facts".

If you were to really do a reasonable chart of bias, you would have to add an extra column to the left and move the center line in that direction. That is actually reflective of the rightward movement in mass media over the past 40 years. The center line has continued to shift further right, but that is only because of the incredible number of media services that have been created to establish the RW echo chamber.

What really should establish the centerline is an adherence to comply with journalistic standards, have diversity of voices and information from sources around the globe, and provide voices from all political stations in their opinion and editorial pages. The traditional mainstream media take these positions, and the fact that every one of the big three media sources (ABC, CBS, NBC) appear in the left of center column, should give you a clear indication of the validity of Allsides.com's chart. I mean, there is some real ####ed up #### in this Allsides.com chart.

Real Clear Politics in the center? I guess someone forgot to tell these clowns that RCP was established to shift polling data to the right, so it was more representative of the conservative perspective? But I shouldn't be surprised, since Allsites.com was founded by ex-Republican operatives?

Just right of center is Deseret News (Mormon propaganda), Epoch Times (far right end-times bull#### and supporter of Falun Gong), Newsmax (far right tabloid crap), New York Post (tabloid garbage), The Post Millennial (RW opinion - NO original reporting), Reason (Koch founded and supported John Birch Society free market noise), Washington Examiner and Washington Times (both tabloid garbage). I mean, really? All of these should be way off on the fringe right.

The problem here is that the RW has established so many media outlets that it has tilted the scales, and to maintain the appearance of balance the fulcrum is shifted to the right. The reach of each of these sources is much smaller than those on the left, but because they reference each other and provide a closed feedback loop they become much more powerful in entrenching their massages with their audience. Repetition is the most powerful factor in establishing ideas in the zeitgeist, and the RW has developed an incredibly large and powerful machine to make that happen.

Originally Posted by jonesy

I don't understand how people wouldn't have some type ID. Wouldn't they need it for social assistance programs, welfare or any other reason? With no ID do they show up in any other govt. database at all? If they really have no ID could they get money from the govt? If they do, I don't think it would be cash, so they might need a bank account. I really am not sure how someone could have no ID in this age, unless completely homeless, which as a demographic likely doesn't have high rate of voting.

Is it a worse problem if no ID is required to vote? Wouldn't that be a worse thing overall allowing parties to cheat easier?
Genuinely curious

It's not an ID requirement at issue, its the type of ID requirement that is being demanded. Everyone agrees that some form of ID should be presented to vote. What type of ID is up for debate. Republicans want a state issued drivers license or (and I'm not kidding) gun permit to be the acceptable forms of ID. That disenfranchises a huge number of people who live in the inner cities, as a lot of those people do not have a DL nor will ever have one. You and I may think it is no big deal to have a DL, but if you don't have a car or have never even taken a drivers test, why would you have one? How about just a Voter ID Card that can be registered in local communities and used for just that purpose? Wouldn't that make more sense? Not to Republicans. They want to limit the types of IDs used so it precludes many black and brown people, and eliminate that voting block.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Then that's not racist. I think the Democrats are fighting the wrong fight here. Why fight voting laws? Why don't the Democrats subsidize a program to get people ID? It doesn't even have to be a govt program, rich politicians or celebs could do it, heck Oprah alone could do it. This would be the ultimate ground game. Be GOP a-hole proof.

I understand why some blacks don't have ID. Papers are missing, no birth certificate, werent born in a hospital etc... but these things can be solved by money, couple hundred dollars per person. Democrats should front this.

I don't understand why Latinos don't have ID. They came later and mostly live in cities

This may be one of the worst and unintentionally racist posts I've seen on this site. So poorly informed.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

This may be one of the worst and unintentionally racist posts I've seen on this site. So poorly informed.

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

It's not an ID requirement at issue, its the type of ID requirement that is being demanded. Everyone agrees that some form of ID should be presented to vote. What type of ID is up for debate. Republicans want a state issued drivers license or (and I'm not kidding) gun permit to be the acceptable forms of ID. That disenfranchises a huge number of people who live in the inner cities, as a lot of those people do not have a DL nor will ever have one. You and I may think it is no big deal to have a DL, but if you don't have a car or have never even taken a drivers test, why would you have one? How about just a Voter ID Card that can be registered in local communities and used for just that purpose? Wouldn't that make more sense? Not to Republicans. They want to limit the types of IDs used so it precludes many black and brown people, and eliminate that voting block.

There is no jurisdiction that required drivers license only to eliminate people that can't drive. Driver's license is one of many types of ID accepted. Here is Texas, known to be the most strict. How is this racist or unreasonable?

[Lanny_McDonald]

The only reason those IDs are allowed is because the Democrats have made ID laws an issue. If it were not for those efforts more draconian laws would have been enacted, requiring limited forms of ID. Again, no one is against presenting ID to vote, it is the types of IDs that are the issue. All of the ID types you point out require the individual to travel to location (DMV) to have those IDs created. That limits the opportunity of poor people who do not have access to travel, or do not have the ability to take time off from their jobs, to get approved ID.

Your post was unintentionally racist in your depiction of black and Hispanics. Especially the "no birth certificate, werent born in a hospital" comment. According to HHS non-Hispanic whites have more live births outside the hospital than any other demographic, and by a factor of 5-to-1. So tone deaf.