American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[nik-]

Originally Posted by rubecube

You have to also remember that the Taliban offered to engage in peace negotiations with the Bush Administration back in the early 00s and the administration declined.

Absolutely disgusts me that there are those in the liberal MSM sphere who continue to contribute to the image rehab efforts of everyone involved in the Bush admin.

The Taliban really didn't warrant peace talks in the early 2000s

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by rubecube

You have to also remember that the Taliban offered to engage in peace negotiations with the Bush Administration back in the early 00s and the administration declined.

Absolutely disgusts me that there are those in the liberal MSM sphere who continue to contribute to the image rehab efforts of everyone involved in the Bush admin.

Because they are addicted to Trump so everyone now from Colin Powell to Liz Cheney is a hero. "Dubya doesn't support Trump, wow, that's so cool!"

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by nik-

The Taliban really didn't warrant peace talks in the early 2000s

20 years and trillions of dollars later and we're headed for a worse outcome.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by rubecube

20 years and trillions of dollars later and we're headed for a worse outcome.

Well yeah, we know that now. The Taliban deserved to be destroyed. Imagine the reaction to starting peace discussions with them in like 2004? No one would have thought that was the right choice.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

They don't warrant peace talks any more now than then, though, do they?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

They don't warrant peace talks any more now than then, do they?

On ethical grounds clearly not. But as concrete people can be now about the opinion that the Taliban would have this much staying power as a force, it really didn't look that way in the early to mid 2000's.

[nik-]

The real solution in Afghanistan is breaking it up into several smaller countries.

[AltaGuy]

How many Canadians and Americans died for this crappy conclusion? How much money spent in this effort?

The Taliban are horrible - just like the Saudis and just like the Ayatollahs. But it was always going to have to come from within, like it will for those other two.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by nik-

The real solution in Afghanistan is breaking it up into several smaller countries.

What, give the Taliban a country and then the other part gets to have education for women? Wouldn't the Taliban just invade them?

I don't think there is a solution. There's a course of action - remain there and continue killing the Taliban, indefinitely, in the hope that they eventually stop being a thing - but no real solution.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Just start financing more heroin growing in the Golden Triangle to cut off Afghanistan's major financial supply. Americans have a history of using drugs and drug money to go after enemies, what's one more time?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

What, give the Taliban a country and then the other part gets to have education for women? Wouldn't the Taliban just invade them?

I don't think there is a solution. There's a course of action - remain there and continue killing the Taliban, indefinitely, in the hope that they eventually stop being a thing - but no real solution.

The northern region successfully fought the Taliban for 30 years. The Taliban has never held sway up there. It's like that because they were majority Tajik and they're willing to fight for their region. Clearly this is the level it needs to be ground to because they don't seem willing to fight for their mothers, daughters and sisters. If the Pashtuns want the Taliban, let them have it. Let the rest of the country determine their own path independently.

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by nik-

The northern region successfully fought the Taliban for 30 years. The Taliban has never held sway up there. It's like that because they were majority Tajik and they're willing to fight for their region. Clearly this is the level it needs to be ground to because they don't seem willing to fight for their mothers, daughters and sisters. If the Pashtuns want the Taliban, let them have it. Let the rest of the country determine their own path independently.

I agree that that sounds like a good idea. But twenty years of failed nation-building in Afghanistan suggests that trying to solve their issues from without has a low chance of turning out the way sought.

[HockeyIlliterate]

The US was correct in invading Afghanistan, as we had to dismantle Al Queda and extinguish Bin Ladin.

But Bin Ladin, ultimately, wasn’t in Afghanistan and I’m not sure that we had a realistic plan of what to put in place once Al Queda had been disrupted. We should have just left then.

It seems to me that the US simply thought that things would work itself out there eventually, and that just shoveling money to support various governments would solve the problem.

Well, that didn’t work.

So after decades of involvement, hundreds of soldiers’ deaths, and billions of dollars being spent, I think we are basically back to where we were in the beginning.

There simply are no good options other than to accept that we cannot control what a bunch of Afghans want and deal with their decisions accordingly.

But I do think that legalizing drugs would be a good first step in reducing the Taliban’s income stream and, by extension, power.

And I really do wish that we had spent the billions on health care, education, and infrastructure here than over there.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by nik-

Well yeah, we know that now. The Taliban deserved to be destroyed. Imagine the reaction to starting peace discussions with them in like 2004? No one would have thought that was the right choice.

There were experts back then who basically predicted this would be the outcome. This wasn't completely unknown, but the Bush administration and neocons in general have always had a love affair with trusting gut instinct over expert advice.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by rubecube

There were experts back then who basically predicted this would be the outcome. This wasn't completely unknown, but the Bush administration and neocons in general have always had a love affair with trusting gut instinct over expert advice.

Well yeah I'm sure there are people that predict almost every scenario. It's not like the Bush administration couldn't fathom that this was a possibility even back then, but you have to proceed based on the current situation and the fact that the Taliban was just not group that deserved to have peace negotiations. A lot of the early hand wringing was based on the "graveyard of empires" stuff though. History isn't guaranteed to repeat.

There are policy decisions that are slam dunk wrong right from the start, but I really don't think this was one of them.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nik-

The real solution in Afghanistan is breaking it up into several smaller countries.

It has always been dozens of smaller countries, that's why its ungovernable

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Does Germany count?

Germany was a democracy before Hitler, then elected Hitler, then went back to being a democracy after the war, it would have with or without us.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nik-

Or Japan?

No because Japan isnt a democracy, they vote for one party, always have always will, the LDP.
Japan is a Democracy in the same way China or Russia is, they hold elections of a sort but the outcome is in no way in doubt

[GirlySports]

Hawaii!!!!

More seriously, Brazil.

[Matata]

If you didn't think the Afghan war was supposed to be a complete mess that allowed war profiteers to massively cash in and give control of Afghan oil and poppy fields to US corporate interests since the onset, you need to get a lot more cynical.