Not the card game, but the Joker from the DC/Batman lore. Batman's greatest foe, the two who were destined to fight for all eternity. There is no Batman without a Joker, and in terms of the Batman universe the Joker is the apex villain.
So who is the best joker? Who's the crowned clown prince of Gotham and why. As always I encourage and love to see people debating this thing. So feel free.
1) Mark Hamill's Joker (Animated series, Arkam games, The Killing Joke) - Mark Hamill's verbal portrayal of the Joker is iconic. When most people think of the Joker its with this one in mind. This is apex Joker who's must see on the screen. He is everything that the Joker was originally portrayed to be. A uncaring anarchist demon psychopath complete with goofy plans, a over the top laugh and hammy. But at the heart of this he's an unrepentant killer, that is doing this to torment Batman and get him to break his one rule. I've always felt that Joker's idea of the ultimate joke is to get Batman to break his one rule and kill him.
2) Heath Ledger - (The Dark Knight) -
I orginally had a lot of uncertainty going in to see Dark Knight. But this was a epic Joker, and the late Heath Ledger's Joker could very well be ranked number one. He borrows a lot of different elements to create a shattered mirror Joker. I always want to know how this Joker is created. The world is his lab and he's running experiments to see how people react to extreme fear and stress. Is he a former psychology student? Is he a damaged Gulf War Vet who's running his own psy ops and getting his revenge on the world? Is he an abused child born in the darkness and unleashed? We'll never know, even his stories on how he got his smile changed, but at the end of the day on the big issues, you feel that he's the most honest character in the movie. Its clear that he's brilliantly smart, a gambler, and someone that understands people really well. He's also got a childish glee to him. All combined he's probably the most unbalanced Joker in the DC Universe.
3) Jack Nicholson (Batman) -
In every movie he's in Jack dominates and chews the scenary with glee. He was a perfect casting for the Joker in the 80's. A former stoic and serious mob killer who is shown the funnier side of life. He's the worlds first functional homicidal artist, and he plays it to a T. From coldly killing Bob, to poisoning the city to draw Batman out. This Joker really had no end game. He didn't want to take over Gotham's underworld. He didn't care about money. Gotham was his canvas and he painted it with blood and a great Joker laugh. He's probably the closest thing to how a young CaptainCrunch portrayed the Joker in my mind.
4) Joaquin Phoenix (Joker) -
I'm still years later unsure if I actually liked this version of the Joker, or if I would even consider him to be the Joker. The bottom line is that this Joker was portrayed as someone with serious mental health issues that the world had cast aside and he had created his own reality. This is clearly the most disturbing Joker and his existance in society would be viewed as a grotesque caricature of pure madness. He stands for nothing but chaos. I would almost call this Joker a proto Joker, that creates the environment for the rise of the actual joker years later.
4) Cameron Monaghan (Gotham) -
I thought his portrayal of the Joker in three different stages was brilliant, especially considering that Gotham didn't have the rights to the Joker character so he was never called the Joker. He went from a very Jack Nicholson style of Joker that was just there to vent his insanity and cause absolute chaos. He also played a brilliant obsession with Bruce Wayne. But somewhere along the line the Joker character went through a complete evolution. He went from the chaos of Jerome Valeski to the calm engineer person of his twin brother Jeremiah who slowly went insane to the post chemical vat Joker. Cameron was brilliant throughout the series and chewed the scenery with glee. At the same time the whole plot line of Jerome was to expose that his twin brother was far more evil then he was in a twisted way. In a unique plot twist the Joker was born from the Joker.
5) Cesar Romaro - (Batman series)
Over the top and completely campy. But every Joker has borrowed from his portrayal of the Joker from look, to over the top campiness, to his laugh. He was the first Joker, that every portrayal added layers to.
6) Jared Leto (Suicide Squad, Justice League) -
Ok frankly I didn't like this Joker, he was a thug in makeup, and they tried way to hard to push that he was a dangerous Joker. There was no subtly to this Joker, He was more a mob boss, and murderer with no artform then anything else.
7) Barry Keoghan (The Batman) -
This is more a not complete then anything else. But there was something really intriguing about this Joker that makes you want to see more. He's not as maniacal as most jokers. And he comes across as a bit cold. He's clearly a manipulator and has a Hannibal Lector quality to him. I would think on the outside world. he would be like a pit snake, watching and waiting for an opportunity for maximum damage.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
The Following User Says Thank You to CaptainCrunch For This Useful Post:
I do think that Jack Nicholson did a great job as the Joker. Especially in a Tim Burton film that really would have leaned more heavily into the dark side, he did a great job of keeping him light.
That's Joker's best quality or most entertaining quality, is he turns on a whim and is completely unpredictable.
Ledger did a great job of making the Joker more relevant to todays world and it was a very unique spin on the character that I thoroughly enjoyed.
The part where he talks about not wanting to kill Batman to his face, that to me was the best performance of the Joker in any form outside the comics.
The Joker bathes in chaos and disruption. Ledger nailed that part. But he also gives Batman some insight into his thought process and the fact that he isn't just a chaotic freak, he understands logic and has his own set of principles that he operates inside of. You can see the revelation on Bale's face during the scene. It really is amazing.
So I guess I talked myself into Ledger. I don't think it's even close for anyone else besides those two.
Hamill gets the nod as the most comic accurate Joker I guess, but the comic accurate version doesn't translate well to the big screen so that isn't a fair comparison. He nailed the theatric side of the character, but isn't allowed to go as dark as the character can or does as it is a kids show.
__________________ "In brightest day, in blackest night / No evil shall escape my sight / Let those who worship evil's might / Beware my power, Green Lantern's light!"
Last edited by GreenLantern; 08-04-2023 at 09:02 AM.
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to GreenLantern For This Useful Post:
IT is the best Joker. Jack Nicholson is cool too. Health Ledger was a good “alternative” take on the Joker, and every alternative take since (Phoenix, Leto, etc) has been garbage, mostly because it’s just a less interesting character than actors make it out to be and they’re all doing bad Ledger cosplay at this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DownInFlames
You're just going to ignore the Steve Miller Band?
Add in being a smoker and a midnight toker and you’ve got a triple threat.
I think the best joker has to be divided into categories due to their existences in different time periods and timelines. Sometimes they are the same Joker in different stages of life and other times, they're new interpretations of the same Joker in the same stage of life. Many think they're different takes on Joker. I've been thinking lately that they are all the same Joker and can mostly coexist without multiverse bull####. Same dude, different day.
Joker (Joaquin Phoenix) and The Killing Joke graphic novel are the same time period, but slightly different interpretations. (ie: Pre Thomas Wayne death + young Bruce time period)
Hamill, Ledger, Nicholson, Leto, Keoghan, Monaghan and Romano are all post Thomas Wayne death/adult Bruce Wayne time periods if I'm not mistaken and they are all typically versions built on top of the Killing Joke origin story.
Joker timeline:
- Had some semblance of a normal life
- Grief/evolution/insanity
- Crime (ie: Red Hood)
- After a duration of crime, chemical change to his iconic look
The first two (Phoenix and graphic novel) are the first main two points. The other iterations are typically one or both of the last two points. But one thing I've often noted is that it seems blatantly obvious that Joker's development is typically hinted as a slow patient development.
My personal favourite is the Ledger iterations for a variety of reasons. Christopher Nolan's research into the Joker's origin and his interpretation of the Joker could be one of the deepest and coincidentally most insane delves into Joker's psyche ever. Nolan is known for some insanely detailed and complex story concepts for his movies which is why I feel confident in this claim. This interpretation went deeper when combined with Ledger's Joker note taking notebook, and immersion methods into the role while filming. Nolan provided Ledger with a copy of The Killing Joke graphic novel as material for developing the character. In it's own insane twist of coincidence, Ledger's portrayal of the Joker is incomplete and it will be never completed (due to his death). Nolan and Ledger may have had much further depths of Joker's character they had uncovered and were intending on exploring, but that never transpired.
Another reason I love Ledger's Joker, is that even with the depth of character they uncovered, they spent time to distill the essence of Joker into something easy to understand. This IMO was paralleled by the use of Ekhart's Dent/Two face origin story in the Dark Knight as well as dialogue used in the Dark Knight to explain that Joker and Batman are two sides of the same coin. The two share as many similarities as they do differences. They know each other better than anyone else would ever know them. He is one of the few "multiple day" Jokers IMO that brings consistency to his inconsistency IMO by trying to reveal that there is a pattern in his unpredictability if we can see things from his POV. GreenLantern's post helps points in this direction. IMO, all of these portrayals are Joker and Ledger's version is no different. But I think Ledger's version IMO introduced as many vague attributes to who Joker really is as defined attributes to who Joker really is.
Ledger's Joker is also one of the most simplest Jokers vs the others. He uses a knife, gun, explosives and whatever is on hand (ie: Pencil, broken cue etc.). He comments about reveling in the simple things. Other iterations like Nicholson use complex chemicals and other funky guns and comic book universe weapons and traps and stuff.
I originally hated the Phoenix Joker thinking it was too big of a divergence from what I understood Joker to be. But as much as I originally hated the Phoenix Joker, the more I kinda looked at it vs the graphic novel, the more I realized it was quite true to what Joker is supposed to be. It's a bizarre facet about the Joker I never fully realized before. There's a lot of dialogue about how the Joker is untrustworthy and loves to change stories about his past, but in reality, we don't have too many truly fleshed out stories about his past. Nolan/Ledger hint at the abusive parents/loss of wife explanation. High school drop out, engineer/red hood, etc. also exist. But there's confusion as to whether these hints and bits of origin should/can co-exist as part of a singular Joker a part of a reality situation or a lie that Joker has made up. The most fleshed out origin stories are Phoenix's Joker and the graphic novel. Ironically, I think they both sit in a zone where the narrator is unreliable, but probably the least likely to be clouded by pure deceit. CC's comment about a proto-Joker is correct, but I'm not sure how accurate he realizes that comment is.
What's interestingly fun is that it seems like the Joker's development in general is slow. He doesn't seem like he has a key event that explodes him from previous dude to villain like many other DC characters. He seems like he's relatively incremental, similar in nature to Bruce Wayne who after his parents death slowly accumulates the training and development necessary to become who he is recognized as. I think this is a key element of the Phoenix Joker. ####ty things just keep piling on and on until his breaking point, one of which is agreed upon that exists in Joker's original story time line. Phoenix's Joker I believe is the only Joker story that takes place purely prior to the Red Hood/bleaching events. The more I mull on it, the more intriguing it becomes. He is probably the second best "multiple day" Joker iteration that has been created that shows a pattern to his unpredictability. It's not my favourite Joker, but instead of disregarding this iteration, I've begun to embrace is as part of an important piece of the proto-Joker ethos that is relatively faithful to "The Killing Joke" origin ethos and can coexist with it. I think this version is one that is going to be least enjoyed by most Joker fans because it doesn't have as much of the Joker we all know infused into that tale. The Killing Joke includes timeline that connects with a post bleached Joker to the one we know which is why we appreciate it more IMO. But the origin part in pure honestly is kinda boring. Important, but boring.
Nicholson, Hamill and Romaro Jokers I have felt they were restricted tales regarding Joker. However, I've embraced a theory where many of the interpretations Jokers are all the same Joker. Assume Joker over 100 days. Each day could be completely different. A suicide squad Joker vs Arkham patient joker vs Nicholson/Romaro Joker can all be a different mood Joker at different stages of his life. We embrace the concept that the Joker is happy with a multiple choice past whether by deceit or he honestly has forgotten, but we don't completely embrace a daily multiple choice Joker when many interpretations have him doing this on a minute by minute basis. These along with some of the newer interpretations feel too locked in to me. They seem to hint, "Joker is like this" vs "Joker is all of this".
I don't know enough about the other Joker iterations to comment too much about it.
Using Kubler Ross five stages of grief: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance.
Ledger version seems devoid of depression but seems to swing between denial and acceptance.
Nicholson version seems devoid of depression and seems very locked in on a combination of denial and anger.
Phoenix's proto-Joker seemingly has all 5.
Hamill's cartoon Jokers bounces from different ones and typically locks in that stage for the entirely of that story/episode.
Romaro's version was mostly denial?
Leto's Joker was it denial and depression?
I haven't seen the Keoghan or Monaghan versions to comment.
What Joker is truly trying to accomplish, that's a bit more hazy. It's obviously tied to Batman, but with the introduction of the "Batman who laughs" concepts. The lines blur badly again.
Summary:
I like Joker's story more than his origin story.
Of his story, I prefer the portrayal by Ledger as it seems like a believable "complete" persona of the character. It is the only interpretation that has attempted a "THE Joker" portrayal. Lots of what he does is part of Joker, but not all of what Joker is. It introduces a concept of a pattern to the madness or control to his chaos as hinted by some of what GreenLantern's post. Phoenix's portrayal is seemingly a complete persona as well, but is origin story which I do not enjoy.
Many of the other portrayals of the Joker seem like Joker on a good week or Joker on a bad week. Good, but not complete personas of his character. I think this adds to his "unpredictability" facet, but also adds to the odd confusion as to why other interpretations are acceptable. IMO they are all Joker, but none are "the" Joker. We can almost call them all different Joker "moods".
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to DoubleF For This Useful Post:
Couldn't care less about Gotham the show.
The Batman didn't really need Joker
Romaro WAS the Joker until Jack stole it.
Heath did his very best to supplant Jack but came up just a tick short. It's as close to a tie as I could give.
Hamill is awesome, but voice acting vs. Live acting are two separate entities.
I liked Phoenixs Joker but I honestly thing part 2 will really put the screws to the rankings. On his one film it's a pass, but the 2nd film appears to be the full blossoming of the character. So we will see.
__________________ "Everybody's so desperate to look smart that nobody is having fun anymore" -Jackie Redmond
The Following User Says Thank You to dammage79 For This Useful Post:
I think Ledger most disappeared into it. Maybe it's because we haven't been seeing him since but, whenever I've re-watched The Dark Knight, I totally forget who's behind the make up. He's the reason people love that movie so much.
Nicholson's I didn't connect with as much. Too...fantastical I guess. I think the whole acid vat thing probably takes away from his villainy. And he feels more like a gangster.
Hamill is probably my personal favourite. Instantly recognizable.
I actually haven't seen Joker.
My favourite Joker scene is this one. It encompasses his whole point of view and has a great moment where he stops being the Joker and is a true human gangster for a moment. "Why don't we cut you up into little pieces, and feed you to your pooches?!"
__________________
Last edited by Coach; 08-04-2023 at 02:27 PM.
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Coach For This Useful Post:
The great part about the Joker is that you can depict him in so many different ways without tarnishing the character. I will say, I'm really intrigued by the Barry Keoghan Joker. The deleted scene from the Batman really give off a Hannibal Lector type vibe. He seems totally chaotic but also very intelligent. Where Batman's intelligence lies in his detective work, this Joker's intelligence lies in his ability to read and manipulate people. The way he's able to get under the Batman's skin right away is great:
After mulling it over, if explaining the Joker to someone who isn't already initiated into the DC universe, I think Ledger's Joker is the best introduction to Joker to someone who doesn't know anything. The subtle hints they put in the whole film about who Joker is is a great gateway into understanding Joker's unreliability and insanity, but that there's some form of underlying method to his madness. It is one of the best Joker summaries out there by far.
After that, I think you turn to any of the other Jokers albeit "Hamill's Joker" is from so many different types of media that it would probably be hard to "introduce" someone to that specific Joker due to the wide body of work and hours of media you'd have to churn through to see it. I'd explain most of those other Jokers are just different Jokers at different times, but still part of the same Joker.... but I'd leave out two Jokers.
Phoenix's Joker IMO is more important than first realized. But this Joker is for diehard fans only who want everything including the boring back story.
Leto's Joker... I'd just tell people I watched that for Margot Robbie more than Leto.
Lets talk Jokers
