[Rumour] Friedman: Devils and Flames have had legit discussions about Markstrom

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Bonded

It really depends. Last year it was basically impossible to give tickets away because it was boring hockey. If it is bad and boring hockey then attendance will go down.

If you're icing a young and hungry roster I don't think it would be boring and would be a much easier sell. Watching overpaid vets underachieve really has no selling point. It also has no hope. Throw a couple of top 5 picks on the ice with the prospects you have now and accumulate over the next couple of years, and I think that starts to look a lot more intriguing. At some point, you have to take a few steps back to take a leap forward. In an intelligent hockey market like Calgary, I think if the organization openly expressed that type of plan, it would be a breath of fresh air, and well recieved.

[Royle9]

Curious what the retention was, obviously enough to back out of it.
I'm guessing NJ swung for the fences and asked for 50% which would be tough to swallow for 2 more seasons and likely wasn't upgrading on what they were offering to do so.

I bet the circle back and figure it out, there's just too much smoke but still interesting to hear about this stuff.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Figured this was going to be the case, regardless of what Conroy has been saying about having three retention spots. It's hard for a management team to change business practices when ownership remains the same. There has to be some real serious value there or retention is not going to be approved.

Will have to see if they use any.

Not wanting to retain for 2.5 years is a different animal and doesn't say anything about their willingness to retain on expiring contracts.

[Major Major]

It is also hard to set a price on retention over multiple seasons. If it is 1 million, it could be a third. If it is 1.5, it is likely a second. If it is 2 million, it should be a first.

If Conny has a price on retention and the devils won't match it, that is still a "retention issue" and it was reported this way when the Leafs were trying to land Z and Tanev. Retention ain't cheap and having a high price doesn't mean you won't.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Hackey

If you're icing a young and hungry roster I don't think it would be boring and would be a much easier sell. Watching overpaid vets underachieve really has no selling point. It also has no hope. Throw a couple of top 5 picks on the ice with the prospects you have now and accumulate over the next couple of years, and I think that starts to look a lot more intriguing. At some point, you have to take a few steps back to take a leap forward. In an intelligent hockey market like Calgary, I think if the organization openly expressed that type of plan, it would be a breath of fresh air, and well recieved.

Easy to say today, but 8 years from now when that re-build could still be happening - much harder.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Will have to see if they use any.

Not wanting to retain for 2.5 years is a different animal and doesn't say anything about their willingness to retain on expiring contracts.

We're in agreement on this. I think they may retain on an expiring contract or two. Eating $600K is much different than eating $4-7M on a player that is going to be an important asset for another team that is in a contender window. The return there would have to be huge and bring incredible value to the Flames lineup and no inflate the salary structure at the same time. Holtz and Mercer are probable targets as they could be bridged to offset the retention and maintain the salary structure.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Will have to see if they use any.

Not wanting to retain for 2.5 years is a different animal and doesn't say anything about their willingness to retain on expiring contracts.

In my eyes Conroy and the organization should be aggressive in being willing to do it though. If they truly want to fast forward things and not dwell in irrelevancy, using the cap space in the short term to effectively skip the line in the draft is a good way to do it.

Markstrom @ 50% for Alexander Holtz (I don't think we'd see a deal like this being a 1 for 1, but for as example)

That's a 34 year old goalie and ~$6M for a 22 year old top-10 pick that has already spent some time being developed. Those types of players are rarely traded, and would help the Flames get down this re-tool road quicker. When you look at Wolf being a sub-$2M goalie for the duration of that Markstrom retention period, it's not a very painful pill to swallow. Especially when we look at recent history and the fact that we spent that $6M in goalie salary on the league's worst goalie just last season.

The Flames seemingly don't want a prolonged period of pain, and using things like salary retention helps them avoid that. Conroy should of course extract maximum value, but the team is in a really good/intriguing spot when it comes to the goaltending position and dealing from a position of power right now seems like a smart move.

I'd sooner see Markstrom traded than Hanifin at this point. If we extend Hanifin and trade Markstrom and Tanev? I'd view that as a big ol' W (...bigger W being trading all 3).

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Very little smoke around Hanifin (no specifics or teams named as being interested) which should be concerning as far as making a deal goes. Conroy may be asking more than the market will bear or Hanifin's playoff history is such that teams don't think he's worth the squeeze. Flames may have to adjust their expectations to get something out of the assest.

Unfortunately for the Flames I think it is the quieter side because Hanifin has one team he wants to sign with and and most people know it. If there isn't a sign and trade then I am guessing it will run right to deadline and the return will be worse than Lindholm.

Originally Posted by Hackey

. In an intelligent hockey market like Calgary, I think if the organization openly expressed that type of plan, it would be a breath of fresh air, and well recieved.

I think you are really under estimating how casual most of the Flames fan base is. If their high picks end up like Laf and Kakko than I think attendance will plummet. Getting younger needs to happen but I don't buy into the idea that the fans will show up regardless of the results.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I think you are really under estimating how casual most of the Flames fan base is. If their high picks end up like Laf and Kakko than I think attendance will plummet. Getting younger needs to happen but I don't buy into the idea that the fans will show up regardless of the results.

Bennett was a Laf/Kakko type pick, but also don't write those players off. Development isn't a straight line, and the fact that they're both taking their time points to structural problems in NYR in my eyes.

Attendance didn't dip after Bennett didn't come to fruition. This market loves hockey, and loves younger players with upside (look at how Wolf, who has yet to do anything at NHL level gets embraced by the fans).

If anything, I think you're underestimating just how quick the fans in Calgary are to embrace young players.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Bennett was a Laf/Kakko type pick, but also don't write those players off. Development isn't a straight line, and the fact that they're both taking their time points to structural problems in NYR in my eyes.

Attendance didn't dip after Bennett didn't come to fruition. This market loves hockey, and loves younger players with upside (look at how Wolf, who has yet to do anything at NHL level gets embraced by the fans).

If anything, I think you're underestimating just how quick the fans in Calgary are to embrace young players.

The Flames had Monahan/Gaudreau/Tkachuk to offset Bennett flopping and were winning games. Let's say the Flames didn't sign Gaudreau and ended up with Julovei, Bennett, and Monahan. That would have been painful.

If the Rangers didn't have the benefit of being an attractive destination they would be mired in a long slog of a rebuild with two failing top end picks.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Bennett was a Laf/Kakko type pick, but also don't write those players off. Development isn't a straight line, and the fact that they're both taking their time points to structural problems in NYR in my eyes.

Attendance didn't dip after Bennett didn't come to fruition. This market loves hockey, and loves younger players with upside (look at how Wolf, who has yet to do anything at NHL level gets embraced by the fans).

If anything, I think you're underestimating just how quick the fans in Calgary are to embrace young players.

Didn’t it?

We haven’t seen 19000+ since the year after they made it to the second round. Obviously you can’t count the COVID years there, but our attendance doesn’t exactly make the case that fans care about anything but success.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

In my eyes Conroy and the organization should be aggressive in being willing to do it though. If they truly want to fast forward things and not dwell in irrelevancy, using the cap space in the short term to effectively skip the line in the draft is a good way to do it.

Markstrom @ 50% for Alexander Holtz (I don't think we'd see a deal like this being a 1 for 1, but for as example)

That's a 34 year old goalie and ~$6M for a 22 year old top-10 pick that has already spent some time being developed. Those types of players are rarely traded, and would help the Flames get down this re-tool road quicker. When you look at Wolf being a sub-$2M goalie for the duration of that Markstrom retention period, it's not a very painful pill to swallow. Especially when we look at recent history and the fact that we spent that $6M in goalie salary on the league's worst goalie just last season.

The Flames seemingly don't want a prolonged period of pain, and using things like salary retention helps them avoid that. Conroy should of course extract maximum value, but the team is in a really good/intriguing spot when it comes to the goaltending position and dealing from a position of power right now seems like a smart move.

I'd sooner see Markstrom traded than Hanifin at this point. If we extend Hanifin and trade Markstrom and Tanev? I'd view that as a big ol' W (...bigger W being trading all 3).

I'd assume that would be in play if the value was perceived in doing it.

Also doubt any team (Jersey included) is jumping up to pay full value for that in initial talks.

The Flames have multiple UFAs next year as well. Giving up a slot could mean one of those players goes for considerably less. Have to factor it all.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Didn’t it?

We haven’t seen 19000+ since the year after they made it to the second round. Obviously you can’t count the COVID years there, but our attendance doesn’t exactly make the case that fans care about anything but success.

I didn't actually check but you are right. Never recovered to the Iggy years and the attendance during the young guns era was bad.
https://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attenda...h.php?tmi=5090

[getbak]

Originally Posted by keenan87

So, should we hope the Devils go on a mini 3-4 game winning streak?

Ideally a win streak where their goaltending still looks shaky.

Their week looks like: Seattle, Nashville, LA, and an outdoor game against Philly on Saturday to finish the week, so it's possible they win 3 or 4.

[jayswin]

What isn't factored into Flames attendance is that this city is just different since 2014. There was a fundamental shift in cooperate spending back then.

[atb]

This deal probably made a lot more sense for NJ before their recent losing streak. If they lose today and tomorrow, can’t see them revisiting this deal until the offseason.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Figured this was going to be the case, regardless of what Conroy has been saying about having three retention spots. It's hard for a management team to change business practices when ownership remains the same. There has to be some real serious value there or retention is not going to be approved...

Friedman is just connecting the dots, here. He does not know that the issue is the Flames's reluctance to retain money, but speculates this based on past history. Of course, you are going to leap to premature conclusions like you always do. But, given that ALL the information we have is that retention is a sticking point, and given that Conroy has gone on record to say that the Flames are open to retention, and given that two years of retention is a MASSIVE ask for ANY team, it seems at least as likely that this situation is a lot more nuanced than just "mUrRaY eDwArDs Is ChEaP!"

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[Hack&Lube]

The only thing I don't like about trading Marky is that in every post-game they are shouting him out and cheering him. It seems like he's a good locker room glue and his players rally around him.

We just got the locker room camaraderie and mood fixed, I'm nervous about upsetting it again.

As I mentioned in the trade thread, multiple teams have requested his medical records recently.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Friedman is just connecting the dots, here. He does not know that the issue is the Flames's reluctance to retain money, but speculates this based on past history. Of course, you are going to leap to premature conclusions like you always do. But, given that ALL the information we have is that retention is a sticking point, and given that Conroy has gone on record to say that the Flames are open to retention, and given that two years of retention is a MASSIVE ask for ANY team, it seems at least as likely that this situation is a lot more nuanced than just "mUrRaY eDwArDs Is ChEaP!"

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He specifically says he heard retention was the much bigger problem. Start at 33:19 of the most recent 32 thoughts podcast, after he talks about the history with CGY not retaining in the past.

[blankall]

50% retention? If NJ isn't willing to pay more than $3 million to fill out a position like starting goalie, that's probably where a lot of their issues are coming from.