We are all Clowns - Joker Spoiler Talk

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Rando

That's not a nod to the '89 movie Batman, it's the original Batman origin story. You don't tell a Batman story without Martha's pearls.

It was originally a necklace, not pearls.

Both the pearls and them leaving a Zorro movie were introduced in Frank Miller’s Dark Knight Returns.

[peter12]

Really didn't like it. Purposefully dark. Needlessly depressing. A giant, lumbering, sadness of a film.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by peter12

Really didn't like it. Purposefully dark. Needlessly depressing. A giant, lumbering, sadness of a film.

I think the more time I’ve had to digest it, the less I like it. Partly, perhaps, because there seems to be so little to digest.

Needless and lumbering ring very true. It doesn’t manage to really say anything with any heart. It treats interesting issues and commentary with the brush stroke of an elephant at the zoo. It’s almost purposely made to be something very specific, without understanding the heart or the brains behind the things it’s imitating.

It’s a comic book movie through and through, without the pure escapist joy that actually makes comic book movies worth watching.

[peter12]

Yeah, if the central takeaway is that the Joker is a mentally-ill everyman, and the whole thing could have been avoided if taxes were a little bit higher, and services were more available, well, that's not a story...

[blankall]

Originally Posted by peter12

Yeah, if the central takeaway is that the Joker is a mentally-ill everyman, and the whole thing could have been avoided if taxes were a little bit higher, and services were more available, well, that's not a story...

That's really only if you accept the narrative on its face. The Joker's recollection was particularly inconsistent when it came to his interactions with other people. For example, his co-worker giving him a gun, because he liked him makes zero sense. It had already been established that he freaked his co-workers out. Why would anyone just give the creepy guy a gun? Even back then, there was significant gun control. So getting an illegal uncontrolled gun would have been a feat. Then you go and give it to the creepiest person you know for free?

The co-workers story later on is that Arthur was asking him for a gun, but he didn't supply him with one. That seems a lot more realistic.

Overall, I'm guessing that the Joker's narrative takes a lot of liberties to rationalize his own criminality.

The reason we get the flashbacks about Sophie is that it was a flashback that Arthur himself realized was false. Who knows what else went on that he didn't realize.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by blankall

That's really only if you accept the narrative on its face. The Joker's recollection was particularly inconsistent when it came to his interactions with other people. For example, his co-worker giving him a gun, because he liked him makes zero sense. It had already been established that he freaked his co-workers out. Why would anyone just give the creepy guy a gun? Even back then, there was significant gun control. So getting an illegal uncontrolled gun would have been a feat. Then you go and give it to the creepiest person you know for free?

The co-workers story later on is that Arthur was asking him for a gun, but he didn't supply him with one. That seems a lot more realistic.

Overall, I'm guessing that the Joker's narrative takes a lot of liberties to rationalize his own criminality.

The reason we get the flashbacks about Sophie is that it was a flashback that Arthur himself realized was false. Who knows what else went on that he didn't realize.

This just supports my previous assertion that the movie was lumbering and self-indulgent.

[Igottago]

I think there was way more going on there than some central takeaway about mental illness and social programs, although that was a piece of it.

Does the fact that the film was pretty much entirely bleak and didn't have a feel good resolution make it a bad movie? Not to me. But I can understand why its off putting to people. I think the purpose of the movie was to take you on an uneasy, stressful journey into the making of a madman. There was no batman to come in and resolve that tension. But I actually liked that the movie went there.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I think there was way more going on there than some central takeaway about mental illness and social programs, although that was a piece of it.

Does the fact that the film was pretty much entirely bleak and didn't have a feel good resolution make it a bad movie? Not to me. But I can understand why its off putting to people. I think the purpose of the movie was to take you on an uneasy, stressful journey into the making of a madman. There was no batman to come in and resolve that tension. But I actually liked that the movie went there.

Not well-executed though. If what you are saying is true, then how is this not just another version of Fight Club?

[KTrain]

It's definitely a movie that's going to have fewer repeat viewings than other superhero movies. I don't really have a desire to see it again right away and I thought it was a good movie.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by peter12

Not well-executed though. If what you are saying is true, then how is this not just another version of Fight Club?

I think the tone/tension in fight club was much different than this film. Joker wasn't using another another character (Tyler Durden) to juxtapose with at all -- this movie was entirely a battle with his own delusions and descent. And it was structured to pull you into it in a pretty unsettling way.

I disagree that it wasn't well executed.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I think the tone/tension in fight club was much different than this film. Joker wasn't using another another character (Tyler Durden) to juxtapose with at all -- this movie was entirely a battle with his own delusions and descent. And it was structured to pull you into it in a pretty unsettling way.

I disagree that it wasn't well executed.

Well, not to beleaguer the point, what was the point of the film? That the modern world is hard and brutal to those on the bottom and that the privileged step on the poor to vault to the top?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I think the more time I’ve had to digest it, the less I like it. Partly, perhaps, because there seems to be so little to digest.

Needless and lumbering ring very true. It doesn’t manage to really say anything with any heart. It treats interesting issues and commentary with the brush stroke of an elephant at the zoo. It’s almost purposely made to be something very specific, without understanding the heart or the brains behind the things it’s imitating.

It’s a comic book movie through and through, without the pure escapist joy that actually makes comic book movies worth watching.

What I find especially interesting is that every single one of your insights into the joker is also true of your post.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by peter12

This just supports my previous assertion that the movie was lumbering and self-indulgent.

I think if anything it has gotten people talking. On top of that it was a masterpiece of cinematography, and many of the scenes, although uncomfortable to watch, certainly kept you stuck on the screen.

For me, those elements alone qualify it as solid entertainment.

I can definitely see why some people would find it self-indulgent though. Phoenix's depictions are often like that, and he definitely come across as someone with an ego in real life. It's hard to know how much of that is real, and how much of that is him building up his persona though. "I'm Still Here" might be the most self-indulgent project (not sure whether I'd call it a movie), that an actor has ever done.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

What I find especially interesting is that every single one of your insights into the joker is also true of your post.

Oh you fanboys.



It was a bad movie.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by peter12

Oh you fanboys.



It was a bad movie.

In Cecil's defense he's typically the anti-DC fanboy.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by blankall

In Cecil's defense he's typically the anti-DC fanboy.

That’s an odd take. I have nothing against DC except their propensity to make bad movies. I liked all their good movies.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

What I find especially interesting is that every single one of your insights into the joker is also true of your post.

True. Not only is my post not very deep and made for dumb audiences, but it’s also a comic book movie, so I guess you owe me $16.

I accept Apple Pay. PM me whenever you want to arrange it.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

What I find especially interesting is that every single one of your insights into the joker is also true of your post.

“Also true”? I thought you loved the movie? 😉

[badradio]

Originally Posted by blankall

That's really only if you accept the narrative on its face. The Joker's recollection was particularly inconsistent when it came to his interactions with other people. For example, his co-worker giving him a gun, because he liked him makes zero sense. It had already been established that he freaked his co-workers out. Why would anyone just give the creepy guy a gun? Even back then, there was significant gun control. So getting an illegal uncontrolled gun would have been a feat. Then you go and give it to the creepiest person you know for free?

The co-workers story later on is that Arthur was asking him for a gun, but he didn't supply him with one. That seems a lot more realistic.

Overall, I'm guessing that the Joker's narrative takes a lot of liberties to rationalize his own criminality.

The reason we get the flashbacks about Sophie is that it was a flashback that Arthur himself realized was false. Who knows what else went on that he didn't realize.

Well now I wonder if anything happened... or was he in the insane asylum the whole time?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

It’s also possible the ending in the asylum is much later in his life and he’s recounting his origin in his head and realizing that his origin is tied to Batman’s. Hence his escape immediately after he gets the joke.