Safe Injection Sites approved for edm, Cgy announcement tba

[Swarly]

I work just a couple blocks from the Chumir, I can tell you nobody in my office is concerned with an uptick of vagrant white collar CEO types hanging out in our alley. But there is a definite concern and our office is one of those places that frequently calls the police on a group of 10-15 homeless junkies that hang out right beside our parkade (also sneak into the parkade when they can and steal from cars). People don't feel safe and have been threatened while waiting in their car for the garage door to open for 10 sec.

[jayswin]

There's an important distinction between drug addiction and drug dependence. Most people who function/pay rent/mortgage/buy proper groceries/work etc have drug dependence even if it looks like addiction to themselves and everyone around them.


Basically drug dependence can be very serious, but generally you'll hold down a job, pay all your bills, still live a semi-put together life. But your body still needs a fix quite often (how often usually depends on the drug)

Drug addiction is generally where you will do almost anything for the next fix. Typically you won't hold down a job and therefore won't hold down a place to live, and end up in shelters or the street.

[jayswin]

I only posted that as there seems to be a discussion right now on what types of addicts are outside this safe injection site. The people that Ozy knows and others who function in their life likely aren't addicts, just dependent. Although, addiction can easily stem from dependence.

Ozy is right though, there's millions of people that have huge drug problems that go about their lives and don't end up walking around the streets, committing crimes for their next fix, but they're also not likely classified as addicts.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Swarly

I work just a couple blocks from the Chumir, I can tell you nobody in my office is concerned with an uptick of vagrant white collar CEO types hanging out in our alley. But there is a definite concern and our office is one of those places that frequently calls the police on a group of 10-15 homeless junkies that hang out right beside our parkade (also sneak into the parkade when they can and steal from cars). People don't feel safe and have been threatened while waiting in their car for the garage door to open for 10 sec.

Well....you should be. They're the really dangerous ones!

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by jayswin

I only posted that as there seems to be a discussion right now on what types of addicts are outside this safe injection site. The people that Ozy knows and others who function in their life likely aren't addicts, just dependent. Although, addiction can easily stem from dependence.

Ozy is right though, there's millions of people that have huge drug problems that go about their lives and don't end up walking around the streets, committing crimes for their next fix, but they're also not likely classified as addicts.

I agree with you, there is a difference between addiction and dependence. I will also correct myself in making that distinction. Addiction is both a mental and physical reliance on the substance. I think the correct term to be using these days is "substance abuse disorder", which includes people who need help but do not have a debilitating addiction. This is probably more applicable to the two friends I know who hold down jobs and personal lives but aren't at the level of committing crimes and/or desperate. They can function, but this is not something they can likely change cold turkey, without help.

[you&me]

The topic of the thread is the safe injection site and the effect it and the users are having on the surrounding community. It is clearly not a positive one overall.

This whole "white collar people do it too" and "addiction vs. dependence" seems like a strange tangent to focus on.

I don't know why people get so caught up in playing the "yeah, but..." game

[Ozy_Flame]

Thread about drug usage evolves to talk about addition or dependence.

You're right, seems obtuse and not relevant

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by you&me

The topic of the thread is the safe injection site and the effect it and the users are having on the surrounding community. It is clearly not a positive one overall.

This whole "white collar people do it too" and "addiction vs. dependence" seems like a strange tangent to focus on.

I don't know why people get so caught up in playing the "yeah, but..." game

Meh, the nature of discussion. It's okay to veer off a bit and learn some knew things. Like I just learned a new term being currently used for drug dependence from Ozy, and who knows what else comes from the discussion.

Is that okay with you if a bit of this happens, or should we go back and delete everything?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Swarly

I work just a couple blocks from the Chumir, I can tell you nobody in my office is concerned with an uptick of vagrant white collar CEO types hanging out in our alley. But there is a definite concern and our office is one of those places that frequently calls the police on a group of 10-15 homeless junkies that hang out right beside our parkade (also sneak into the parkade when they can and steal from cars). People don't feel safe and have been threatened while waiting in their car for the garage door to open for 10 sec.

My office is located within the same radius, and I can tell you that there is zero concern or police calls from our office. I interact with the homeless people (junkies) in the area at minimum once a day (thanks smoking addiction!) and can honestly say i’ve never felt threatened or the least bit concerned. They’re just people, far as I can tell, and the worst that’s happened is being yelled at or getting stuck in some long winded conversation/rant about society.

Neither your nor my subjective experience is definitive or going to apply to everyone. But it’s worth questioning whether the problem lays with them or can be partly attributed to the perception people have of them.

I know that for myself at least, it’s pretty easy to avoid uncomfortable situations by just engaging with them, being as kind as possible, and listening when that’s clearly what they’re looking for.

[RyZ]

I used to work 2 buildings down from the Chumir and even roughly 5 years ago, before the SI site opened it was a sketchy area that had me on high alert walking to my car in the Church parking lot at 5pm as a 220lb man. I cant even imagine how unsafe it must feel to many people now, especially when the sun goes down. I'm thrilled I got out of that area when I did.

[2Stonedbirds]

Safe injection site in Lethbridge is a disaster, surrounding businesses have warned people to wear shoes, not sandles, they come out and escorts you into the store, and after numerous break ins, all have new fences and private security.
New downtown enforcement police division, bike cops... but it's ok, taxes never run out.
Popping into Long and Mcquade last Tuesday, I had to navigate the parking lot while a fine fellow was showing me his kung fu moves and yelling at his fists. Good times, I wish there were two sites.

[Swarly]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

My office is located within the same radius, and I can tell you that there is zero concern or police calls from our office. I interact with the homeless people (junkies) in the area at minimum once a day (thanks smoking addiction!) and can honestly say i’ve never felt threatened or the least bit concerned. They’re just people, far as I can tell, and the worst that’s happened is being yelled at or getting stuck in some long winded conversation/rant about society.

Neither your nor my subjective experience is definitive or going to apply to everyone. But it’s worth questioning whether the problem lays with them or can be partly attributed to the perception people have of them.

I know that for myself at least, it’s pretty easy to avoid uncomfortable situations by just engaging with them, being as kind as possible, and listening when that’s clearly what they’re looking for.

Ya, some people tried that approach at first. As a former smoker I used to be out there a lot too and I never had problems with them, but me being a 250 pound guy I personally feel a lot safer than some of the women in my office having to walk past these guys everyday.

Anyway, the being nice and talking routine led my boss to being stuck by a needle. Had to undergo a month of antibiotic injections or something like at as a preventative to HIV or Hep. Luckily he got a clean bill of health at the end but the standard office response is to call the police every time they are there now. I'm pretty sure this is a 3-4 times a week occurrence.

Like you say, neither of our experiences can be used as a blanket to all homeless or junkies in the city (and I'm not trying to classify all homeless people as junkies either). But it's good to be aware of how bad it can go, real fast.

I'm not even sure what should be done about this because I do like the idea overall of safe injection sites, I understand they save lives and save money for health care overall. But it would be nice if the site could be nowhere near where I live or work

[you&me]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Meh, the nature of discussion. It's okay to veer off a bit and learn some knew things. Like I just learned a new term being currently used for drug dependence from Ozy, and who knows what else comes from the discussion.

Is that okay with you if a bit of this happens, or should we go back and delete everything?

A natural evolution of the topic is understandable and expected. I apologize if I came across as trying to police the thread.

My point was - and I still feel this is valid - is that when talking about real, and sometimes awkward issues such as a safe injection site, it seems there's a hesitation to directly address the issue, sometimes in favour of the aforementioned "yeah, but..."

So yes, there are other drug users out there - all types - and yes, the difference between addiction and dependence is interesting, but (to me) it seems like a bit of "hey, look over there - other bad stuff that's not quite as bad as the topic at hand, but, but... look!", rather than just being honest that there are users of the safe injection site that are addicts and some of them are bad people that will do bad things to people and property in the area... Well unfortunate, I don't think someone's boss' coke habit warrants the same level of discussion or concern.

To me, that's the point of the thread - to address those people, to see if there is a different or better way to help or deal with those people and to acknowledge and address that those people are having a negative effect on the area and those that live and work within it and to discuss whether the good outweighs the bad when it comes to apparent the trade offs with the safe injection site.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

My office is located within the same radius, and I can tell you that there is zero concern or police calls from our office. I interact with the homeless people (junkies) in the area at minimum once a day (thanks smoking addiction!) and can honestly say i’ve never felt threatened or the least bit concerned. They’re just people, far as I can tell, and the worst that’s happened is being yelled at or getting stuck in some long winded conversation/rant about society.

Neither your nor my subjective experience is definitive or going to apply to everyone. But it’s worth questioning whether the problem lays with them or can be partly attributed to the perception people have of them.

I know that for myself at least, it’s pretty easy to avoid uncomfortable situations by just engaging with them, being as kind as possible, and listening when that’s clearly what they’re looking for.

Truly a fate worse than death.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Swarly

I'm not even sure what should be done about this because I do like the idea overall of safe injection sites, I understand they save lives and save money for health care overall. But it would be nice if the site could be nowhere near where I live or work

This is the problem with safe injections sites. I think most reasonable people feel this way.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

They’re just people, far as I can tell, and the worst that’s happened is being yelled at or getting stuck in some long winded conversation/rant about society.

It's just like a real-life message board!

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by Swarly

But it would be nice if the site could be nowhere near where I live or work

Originally Posted by corporatejay

This is the problem with safe injections sites. I think most reasonable people feel this way.

I remember when these sites were pushed through based on claims that the crime would not increase. In fact, they were claiming that crime in the area would actually decrease to placate any initial opposition.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/londo...ites-1.4634957

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...-disagree.html

Now that the sites have been opened and locked in, I doubt the communities can do anything about them. They're trojaned in now.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

I wish there were two sites.

Isn't having more sites just basically what we used to have?

The problem is spread out to any dark corner/overhang people can find, and the average Joe just bumps into it here and there.

The problem being spread out makes it more evenly suffered by the general population instead of screwing over a concentrated group of people that live and work near the single site.

It's kind of like the Drop-in Centre. By having a massive, centralized facility, sure they achieve economies of scale for a lot of aspects, but so do the dealers outside.

I'm no expert on this stuff, but I sure prefer having the problem well spread around rather than centralized, as it seems like centralizing things doesn't help police and community workers solve any of the underlying problems any more effectively.

[peter12]

Some real horrifying NIMBY garbage on here.

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Isn't having more sites just basically what we used to have?

The problem is spread out to any dark corner/overhang people can find, and the average Joe just bumps into it here and there.

The problem being spread out makes it more evenly suffered by the general population instead of screwing over a concentrated group of people that live and work near the single site.

It's kind of like the Drop-in Centre. By having a massive, centralized facility, sure they achieve economies of scale for a lot of aspects, but so do the dealers outside.

I'm no expert on this stuff, but I sure prefer having the problem well spread around rather than centralized, as it seems like centralizing things doesn't help police and community workers solve any of the underlying problems any more effectively.

I was being sarcastic, but yeah I feel you. I guess it's easy to say "out of sight, out of mind" which does nothing for these people, but I fail to see how for example Lethbridges current safe injection site is anything but a free for all. I'd love to see some stats on exactly how many lives it has saved. If we are interested in measuring positive impact, then surely we can look at the negative impacts, such as businesses threatening to close shop, and the sharp rise in crime.

https://lethbridgenewsnow.com/2019/0...n-crime-index/

"We're number 1! We're number 1!"

Violent crime has held steady or even declined, but property crime has went ballistic. Considering the amount of chain link fence that has been put up at a cost to business owners, it's easy to figure out why.

Not in my backyard is cop out argument to take when one considers the impact the entire city feels.